Photography on a budget

[lovfinion]

Ok I have been an avid bird watcher for 25 years, but recently I have found a new love in actually photographing these beautiful creatures, my problem has been with equipment, as in using my partners Nikon P80, don't get me wrong its a fab machine, especially for macroing little insects & flowers, but for photographing birds, at a distance its quite frankly lacking..

So I have decided to set myself a goal & budget to aquire a half decent DSLR, I reckon on having a budget of between 300-400 quid, maybe 450 at a right push, I shall then save up for a good 300mm lense, but that will come after purchasing the camera..

so far I have looked at these possibilities..

1. Amazon.co.uk: Nikon D60 AF-S 18-55 DX II VR: Electronics & Photo

2. Amazon.co.uk: Canon EOS 400D Digital SLR Camera (incl. EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Lens Kit): Electronics & Photo

3.Amazon.co.uk: Olympus E-510 Digital SLR Camera (ED 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6): OLYMPUS: Electronics & Photo

4. finally this Amazon.co.uk: Sony DSLR-A200K Digital SLR Camera + Zoom Lens Kit (18-70mm F3.5-5.6): Electronics & Photo with an additional lense as its relatively inexpensive Amazon.co.uk: Tamron AF 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di LD Macro 1:2 Sony/Minolta: Electronics & Photo

Any helpful advice would be most welcome

[MeadsMan]

Hi,Most people will likely point you to Canon or Nikon,they do have an extensive range of accessories and lenses,and I would say go for a camera from either of these,with DSLRs apart from photography skills,it`s the lenses that make the biggest difference,and are the most costly.A 300mm lens is going to struggle with bird photography,you are going to have to get exceptionally close to get good portrait shots of small birds,I would suggest a 400mm lens minimum,but research on lenses before you splash out on anything.Go in a shop and handle the cameras,the different types can feel very different even from the same makers.I hope that`s of some help.

Good luck,it`s a great hobby.

[mh68]

I would echo Meadsman`s comments about the 300mm lens. Thats the focal length of lens I use and it does struggle for small birds unless youre very,very close.Best to spend as little as possible on a body (secondhand maybe?) and put the majority of your cash on a decent, longer lens,but past 300mm it may still be outside your budget a bit, unless you go for the Olympus camera(which doubles the length of any lens you add, due to the size of the sensor).

Mark H

[BruceP]

As the question is about doing this on a budget, then I would recomend the Olympus E510 which has the 2x magnification factor because of the sensor size. This camera also has the image stabilisation built into the body, so non image stabilised lenses become stabilised. Couple this to a sigma 50-500mm lens and you will have a good setup for bird photography.

You can pickup the lens for about £730, so you will need to spend about £1100 to get setup, although you might pickup the sigma 135-400mm lens for half the price, but it doesn't have the HSM focusing. If you havn't had HSM focusing then you won't miss it, but it does make a big difference.

[wildlifesnapper]

Hi

on a budget don't forget about buying secondhand. There's some excellent kit on the used market as some people feel they have to trade up to the latest piece of kit to keep ahead of the Jones's

neil

[lovfinion]

Thanks for the responses, I kinda gathered before hand that bird photography couldn't be done on the cheap,so my best angle will be getting a second hand body, then save for a decent lense as I doubt I can get a body/lens for anything less than 800 quid

Can anyone point to a good "used market" I could try tapping into, I would check ebay but that seems to be full of rogues ^ ^

[DavyG]

I would agree with BruceP, there are currently some great deals on the Olympus E510, you could probably find the twin lens kit for around £350 - £400 if you shop around.

I would recommend that particular camera, I use it and I'm very happy with the results.

This was taken using an Olympus E510 and the Sigma 50-500:



I hope this is of some help.

Dave

[nightshade]

How much photography do you intend to do? If you watch birds you may have a good enough telescope to use the P80 with and do a bit of digiscoping
Just a thought

[lovfinion]

I hope to be doing quite alot of bird photography, especially if I do move to Lewis..
I'm tempted to get this NEW!~ OLYMPUS 10MP E510 DIGITAL SLR CAMERA E-510+2 LENS on eBay, also, Digital Cameras, Photography (end time 15-Jul-08 21:47:39 BST) after saying ebay was all rogues ^ ^

Then I can start saving for a good lens..

[skywatcher]

One thing I would say fromthe bit of experience I have is that you may need to think about fps. I started with a Nikon D80 and a sigma 50-500.I soon wanted a higher fps so if you do go for a second hand body , there's quite a few good s/h D200s going at reasonable prices at the moment ( people are upgrading to the D300). It's only one consideration, of course, but if you get into birds in flight, it helps to be able to rattle off a number of frames (in the hope one of them might be ok!)
Good luck with the search.
Skywatcher

[wildlifesnapper]

Hi

there's a shop in Brixham which is usualy very reasonably priced on used kit ( they don't like name dropping on here but it shouldn't be hard to find.hey have a website and are usually in the photo mags I've used them before.

neil

[Ukwildlifeo]

Lovfinion - You've probably considered this but do you already own a scope? If you do digiscoping is an option

[Rob Chace]

Hi there,
You could always have a look here:
http://www.freewebs.com/lnrwildphoto/itemsforsale.htm

All the best

Rob

[lovfinion]

Thanks for all the advice, I settled on buying an Olympus E-510 & a Zuiko ED 70-300mm 1:4.0-5.6 lens, I live right next to a wood & birds come really close, i've had around 20 species visit my garden already this year..

I think with the Olympus I will get the equivalent of 600mm with the lens I have, is this true & does it degrade quality in anyway?

[Royalist]

Originally Posted by lovfinion

Ok I have been an avid bird watcher for 25 years, but recently I have found a new love in actually photographing these beautiful creatures, my problem has been with equipment, as in using my partners Nikon P80, don't get me wrong its a fab machine, especially for macroing little insects & flowers, but for photographing birds, at a distance its quite frankly lacking..

So I have decided to set myself a goal & budget to aquire a half decent DSLR, I reckon on having a budget of between 300-400 quid, maybe 450 at a right push, I shall then save up for a good 300mm lense, but that will come after purchasing the camera..

so far I have looked at these possibilities..

1. Amazon.co.uk: Nikon D60 AF-S 18-55 DX II VR: Electronics & Photo

2. Amazon.co.uk: Canon EOS 400D Digital SLR Camera (incl. EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 Lens Kit): Electronics & Photo

3.Amazon.co.uk: Olympus E-510 Digital SLR Camera (ED 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6): OLYMPUS: Electronics & Photo

4. finally this Amazon.co.uk: Sony DSLR-A200K Digital SLR Camera + Zoom Lens Kit (18-70mm F3.5-5.6): Electronics & Photo with an additional lense as its relatively inexpensive Amazon.co.uk: Tamron AF 70-300mm F4-5.6 Di LD Macro 1:2 Sony/Minolta: Electronics & Photo

Any helpful advice would be most welcome

Hello there

I too am a wildlife photographer and this includes small birds to large predators. I regret that I am going to dis-allusion you.
The only time that you will have a chance with a 300mm lens(zoom) is with captive birds that are restrained and accustomed to being photographed. I use a 400mm lens and I am not satisfied with it. What you need is a fast i.e F2.8 500mm zoom lens with image stabilisation (also known as VR). This will cost you thousands. So you have to accept that or do what I have done and learn to live with what you can afford. Also you can have a 1.4X or 2.0X teleconverter to place between the lens and the camera. This will increase the effective focal length of your lens by 1.4 or 2.0 times respectively. This will most often prevent autofocus so you have to use manual focus and it will gobble up 1.4 stops or 2.0 stops of light respectively. I have one but I don't use it.
So I'm afraid, that you are moving into the field of big bucks.
Sorry !!
Incidentally image stabilisation doesn't work at low light levels and also you will need a fast shutter for that type of subject. Hence you need a large aperture to admit maximum light. That is where the cost rockets and also the weight.

[lovfinion]

Originally Posted by Royalist

Hello there

I too am a wildlife photographer and this includes small birds to large predators. I regret that I am going to dis-allusion you.
The only time that you will have a chance with a 300mm lens(zoom) is with captive birds that are restrained and accustomed to being photographed. I use a 400mm lens and I am not satisfied with it. What you need is a fast i.e F2.8 500mm zoom lens with image stabilisation (also known as VR). This will cost you thousands. So you have to accept that or do what I have done and learn to live with what you can afford. Also you can have a 1.4X or 2.0X teleconverter to place between the lens and the camera. This will increase the effective focal length of your lens by 1.4 or 2.0 times respectively. This will most often prevent autofocus so you have to use manual focus and it will gobble up 1.4 stops or 2.0 stops of light respectively. I have one but I don't use it.
So I'm afraid, that you are moving into the field of big bucks.
Sorry !!
Incidentally image stabilisation doesn't work at low light levels and also you will need a fast shutter for that type of subject. Hence you need a large aperture to admit maximum light. That is where the cost rockets and also the weight.

Thanks & no I am under no disillusion anymore I realise Wildlife photgraphy, especially if you want to capture Portrait of smaller birds close up requires a large cash investment..

I am & always will be purely at an amatuer level, I am more a bird watcher come photographer & hopefully with the Olympus E-510 with the 300 mm lens (think its the equilelant of 600 mm these 4/3 lenses) I can get a few good shots, I'm I'm not expecting rspb magazine type shots...

[wildlifesnapper]

Hi

I disagree to some extent. Fieldcraft and homework can sometimes outweigh equipment.If you want to photograph small birds find somewhere they are used to people - picnic sites , feeding stations etc. At these places you should get some good shots with a 300mm , especially if it is equivelent to 600mm. To say you need a 500mm f2.8 is going a bit over the top.
You should also be able to use a 1.4x converter ,you only loose one stop of light and will make your lens 420mm (840mm equivelent) at f8 - still very usable.Images may be slightly softer than without the converter but if they are only for your own use they should be fine.

neil

[Tobyh]

I used to use a 300mm Sigma with a 1.4 converter - a few example shots are here - Through the window +converter

bear in mind the title of the thread, taken through windows but it shows what can be done. These are a little soft as I still had (have!) alot to learn.

A 300mm with a converter is useable as long as you are realistic and understands the limitations. I certainly don't regret starting off that way.

TobyH

[John D]

[quote=Royalist;306860]Hello there


The only time that you will have a chance with a 300mm lens(zoom) is with captive birds that are restrained and accustomed to being photographed. I use a 400mm lens and I am not satisfied with it. What you need is a fast i.e F2.8 500mm zoom lens with image stabilisation (also known as VR).

Hi Royalist , I don't agree that it is necessary to have such a lens and spend such a large sum unless one is into professional photography. Many WAB members have obtained excellent results (see the Gallery) with the Canon 100-400 IS, The Bigma (Sigma 50-500mm lens) or Sigma 100-300mm f4 and 1.4tc. etc etc. All of these lenses can be obtained for around £750 to £1000.
However I do agree that it would be nice to have a 500mm f2.8 prime but can't agree it is entirely necessary.
With some practice and a reasonable level of fieldcraft it is possible to get very acceptable results without the need to spend £?? thousand.
John D

[Dae]

I have to agree with John as well. I've had the canon 70-300IS and did have to work harder to get my shots, but it was enjoyable and easy to use. I now use the Canon 100-400IS and am blown away by the results. Yes, to get close-up portraits you either need to be near birds that are less skittish or have good fieldcraft to get close.

But I've found that with the 400 I get very good results, certainly enough for the average hobbyist wildlife/bird photographer, and usually enough for even the semipro. There's no need to spend thousands to enjoy wildlife photography.

If you want professional-grade, sellable shots, then yes, looking into the big bucks is probably likely, but if you just want it as an enjoyable hobby with good results, the Bigma, Sigma 100-300, Canon 70-300IS or the Canon pump (100-400L IS) is plenty of lens.

Mind you, this is all my own opinion, and certainly not all will agree with me. But I think it's perfectly possible to get reasonable photographic results of wildlife on a budget.

[mh68]

Have to agree with John D. Something else to consider too,is the weight of big fast lenses. A 500mm f4.5 Sigma tele weighs over 3kg. Its all very well spending a fortune on big lenses like the one above, but how far could you carry it????
A mate has a Sigmonster (300-800mm)which gives amazing reach, but he hardly uses it due to not being able to carry it far.Pointless really...
Of the setups mentioned, one of the Sigma 500mm zooms combined with the Olympus body would give the best reach vs portability,and would probably be the best compromise.
If photographing small birds was my thing, I`d tend to be more inclined to buy a few cheap camo hides, and set up a few feeding stations, than spend a fortune on a lens I couldnt carry far anyway.

Mark H

[Royalist]

[quote=John D;306938]

Originally Posted by Royalist

Hello there


The only time that you will have a chance with a 300mm lens(zoom) is with captive birds that are restrained and accustomed to being photographed. I use a 400mm lens and I am not satisfied with it. What you need is a fast i.e F2.8 500mm zoom lens with image stabilisation (also known as VR).

Hi Royalist , I don't agree that it is necessary to have such a lens and spend such a large sum unless one is into professional photography. Many WAB members have obtained excellent results (see the Gallery) with the Canon 100-400 IS, The Bigma (Sigma 50-500mm lens) or Sigma 100-300mm f4 and 1.4tc. etc etc. All of these lenses can be obtained for around £750 to £1000.
However I do agree that it would be nice to have a 500mm f2.8 prime but can't agree it is entirely necessary.
With some practice and a reasonable level of fieldcraft it is possible to get very acceptable results without the need to spend £?? thousand.
John D

I was not suggesting a prime lens, but a zoom. With marine birds it is very difficult to get close enough with a 400mm zoom, but they do make brilliant subjects.

[mh68]

This is the ONLY 500mm f2.8 zoom on the market as far as i`m aware....anyone fancy lugging this beastie round for a days bird photography??

Sigma - Lenses

Weight 15kg +

Mark H

[John D]

[quote=Royalist;306985]

Originally Posted by John D

I was not suggesting a prime lens, but a zoom. With marine birds it is very difficult to get close enough with a 400mm zoom, but they do make brilliant subjects.

OK Royalist as Mark points out Sigma makes a Zoom which is 200 -500mm f2.8 but how many folk can carry a 15kg lens + other equipment around for any real distance and what is the cost??

John D