Bird Nest Photos

[StuartDH]

Over the past few days we've been considering whether or not to include bird nest photos in the gallery and have decided that, for the moment, we won't be including them in.

Across the birding world it's fairly common for bird nests to not be included in galleries, as the pictures may have been taken in circumstances that could scare parents away from their chicks and possibly abandon the nest.

In addition to this, there are various laws and regulations that make it illegal to photograph the nests of schedule 1 birds, or get too close to any nest in Scotland etc.

As a result, we've currently moved bird nest images to a hidden 'quarantine' gallery and we won't be posting any new nest images, until we've at least found a better way of highlighting the issues

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

In addition to the above, there are also many bird nest images that are clearly taken from a distance with/without a zoom. It's very unlikely that the photographer would have caused any disturbance to the nest and it seems a shame to leave some of these great pictures out of the gallery.

So, as well as contacting some of the large birding organisations for their advice, we'd also welcome your opinion on the subject. Please let us know what you think, for and against, having bird nest photos on the site.

Thanks

Stu

[nightshade]

I take it you mean birds on the nest shots StuDh, I do not think these are necessary but shots of end of season nests to show types and construction are useful for assisting in-season recognition it is too risky when so many species are struggling

[Helen]

It is not only Scotland where it is illegal.

"The law prohibits intentional disturbance of any species included in Schedule 1 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This applies while such a bird is building a nest, or is in, on, or near a nest containing eggs or young.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/BIRDPHOT_tcm5-43180.pdf

I think the photographing of nests should be left to the professionals who know what they are doing, and who are fully licenced to do so. This will eliminate extra work for the staff of WAB, checking up on Schedule 1 species etc, and will also elimate any grey areas that may arise.

How do we know someone isn't close to the nest when claiming they are using a large zoom? We don't.

From the RSPB site: "The birds welfare must always come first".

Let's remember, this is a Wildlife site, therefore I would imagine members consider the welfare of birds/mammals comes before the desire to get a nest photo posted in the gallery.

Let's face it, we don't know who will join as a member in the future. What if someone posts a nests pic, and swears that he/she followed the guidrlines? How do we know they have? People can say anything on the internet.

[fbcpmike]

A Difficult one. Certainly schedule 1 bird nests should not be shown at all, but then could that not also be extended to the birds themselves ?. BBC Wildlife have in the past published an explantory guide to common birds nests showing the overall nest shape, form and building materials. Personally I would say yes but with restrictions and assurances from the photographer, but if more qualified organisations say no then I understand, this is not my field of expertise.

I have photographed them in the past (telephoto lens, with care) and in some cases it's not as if the birds are disturbed (don't jump down my throat just yet), we have a Blackbird pair, who over the last 3 years have built a nest within 10ft of our back door. We can see them and the nest, they can see us and the cat, each goes their own way without disturing the other. They are successfull as well, two broods last year, we've watched the parents come and go and the young fledge, how would that put me if we were in Scotland ?.

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

I understand the concerns and I think these and relavent advice should appear on WAB. Most of us here on WAB are responsible people with wildlife interests at heart, acting responsibly, we would not be here otherwise.

[John]

Hi Stu

The quarantine gallery. Are the photos in a position to be looked at or are they meant to be hidden. I ask because in the opening page two of the four photos shown in the image gallery are of Swallows in a nest.

John

[wildone]

John, I think you will find that the quarantine gallery works in the same way as the Admin Forum. If you go to WAB without signing in you will not be able to see them.

[pheonix]

i totalally agree wih this idea, because although the chance of the average person getting to take photos of a schedule one species is very slim, the CROW act makes it illegal to recklessly disturb, damage etc any birds nest/nesting bird. and like helen said whos is to say whether someone used a scope or long lense to get a shot a worried a nesting bird by getting too close? its a tough one to call on..

[John]

Originally Posted by wildone

John, I think you will find that the quarantine gallery works in the same way as the Admin Forum. If you go to WAB without signing in you will not be able to see them.

That's fine but my impression was that it was quarantined and hidden until a decision was made to either stay with the ban or show the photos.

John

[SteveA]

I've been an occasional visitor to this site for many months; it has been progressing, albeit with a few hiccups, quite nicely. When I saw this thread crop up, I felt it was time to make an entrance.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

Over the past few days we've been considering whether or not to include bird nest photos in the gallery and have decided that, for the moment, we won't be including them in.

Across the birding world it's fairly common for bird nests to not be included in galleries, as the pictures may have been taken in circumstances that could scare parents away from their chicks and possibly abandon the nest.

In addition to this, there are various laws and regulations that make it illegal to photograph the nests of schedule 1 birds, or get too close to any nest in Scotland etc.

Stuart, one major reason not to show them is that it might encourage people of less integrity to attempt to emulate those shown here.

Another is the increased risk of predation if a site has been 'gardened', or the birds giving alarm calls in the presence of the photographer - these are signs that a predator would be looking and listening for.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

As a result, we've currently moved bird nest images to a hidden 'quarantine' gallery and we won't be posting any new nest images, until we've at least found a better way of highlighting the issues

Please do not discuss administrative issues on an open forum - keep it for the admin area of the site.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

Gin-traps and egg-collecting have been illegal for many decades - those laws are still being broken. People don't always take notice of notices! Disclaimers aren't going to protect the site or nesting birds from people who lie about their activities.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

In addition to the above, there are also many bird nest images that are clearly taken from a distance with/without a zoom. It's very unlikely that the photographer would have caused any disturbance to the nest and it seems a shame to leave some of these great pictures out of the gallery.

Sorry Stuart, I think that you meant to say "with a long telephoto lens", zoom lenses can be wholly within the wide angle range. A tight crop from a photograph taken with a standard lens would look like a photo taken with a telephoto lens - it might be impossible to tell the difference with the file sizes used on this site.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

So, as well as contacting some of the large birding organisations for their advice, we'd also welcome your opinion on the subject. Please let us know what you think, for and against, having bird nest photos on the site.

What organisations have you contacted? What replies have you received so far?

I think it will be a backward step. don't do it, please.

Originally Posted by welcome email from WildAboutBritain

As a new charity, we are currently developing a number of facilities that aim to strengthen the UK's wildlife community and ultimately advance the study, enjoyment and conservation of our natural environment.

As a charity with those stated aims, you should be concerned with running this site in an impeccably professional manner. Work is still needed in the admin and technical departments to improve the running of the forum, with the best staff you can find and high ethical standards for posting.

The opening up of the gallery to nest photographs is very likely to lead to a division of current members and increase the number of non conservation-minded individuals posting photographs here.

Many bird species are declining throughout Britain - you should not be seen to be encouraging anything which might lead to more losses.

Thanks,

Steve.

(Would you like to remove this thread and continue the discussions away from the public eye? It may be less embarrassing.)

[StuartDH]

Thanks for the comments so far, keep them coming.

Steve - It was always going to be a difficult issue, and that's why I'm keen to have the discussion out in the open so that we look at it as a community, before coming to a decision.

I'd like to explore all opportunities and consider every option before putting a final action in place. It's good to be able to hear the various opinions and consider whether to keep the images, only have them posted by verified/qualified photographers or ban them completely.

Stuart

[wildone]

Originally Posted by StuartDH

It's good to be able to hear the various opinions and consider whether to keep the images, only have them posted by verified/qualified photographers or ban them completely.

Stuart

Stuart

If you have images even by verified/qualified photographers, will that not encourage others to take photographs of nests even if they can't be posted on WAB? Surely there is the risk that some will see the photographs and want to try for equally good images. Even if those are not posted on WAB we are still responsible for protecting our Wildlife and should do nothing that might encourage the less concerned to harm it.

wildone

[SteveA]

Originally Posted by StuartDH

Steve - It was always going to be a difficult issue, and that's why I'm keen to have the discussion out in the open so that we look at it as a community, before coming to a decision.

Shouldn't this thread have been placed in the Wild About Britain or Bird forum rather than in Photography?

Or was the idea to attract more photographers to reply than conservationists?

For the sake of transparency, this thread might be better moved into an area of the site that would attract an audience more aware of the risks of unneccessary disturbance to our native wildlife.

[Tragus]

I'm afraid I'm one of those who would rather NOT see bird nest photo's.
I don't think it's wholly necessary for this site to show photos of birds nest. Yes it's nice to see these images, but as others may try to take these photos who have no experience (such as myself) they may unwittingly cause a nest to be abandoned.
I have never and will never take photos of birds in the nest for the pure and simple reason I don't want to take the risk of disturbance. Some others may have the equipment (telephoto, digiscopes etc) to do this safely, but I think that others will then try with inadequate equipment and cause the very thing we don't want to happen.

Just my opinion and I hope I have caused no offence, but I deal with orphaned birds on an almost daily basis during the summer months because of human interference around nest sites. Not to my knowledge because of photographers I hasten to add, but If we all started taking shots then maybe that would be another reason for nest abandonment?
Jo

[Helen]

Jo, an excellent post, you have set out your reasons very well indeed.

As I have said, one just never knows who is posting photographs, they can swear by following the guidelines etc, but who knows.

An example of disturbance happened last year with a red kite nest.

Even though the nest was perceived as "empty", the birds were in fact, rebuilding it. A couple of people, although we have no proof, decided to go into the general area of the nest.

The result? Yep, the nest was abandoned.

I don't think people realise just how terribly sensitive the whole nest thing is when it comes to disturbing birds. One doesn't even have to be that close to them either.

[StuartDH]

I've just had a quick look through google images to see what sort of thing can/can't be found on the net, to see where we could maybe follow suit - i.e. include some images of old nests, web cams etc.

The search turned up quite a few images with close ups of nests, often including chicks, from some of the big orgs, charities, universities etc - and not a single warning notice in sight.

So I'm still left wondering what is usually published and what isn't? Are nest box/web cams considered OK? Should old, abandoned or nests removed from chimneys etc be allowed?

Stuart

[SteveA]

That's all about context Stuart; a nest photograph illustrating a particular part of a species behaviour or an explanation of specific adaptations for differing nesting locations is fine in the right context! New photographs do not have to taken; they can just be linked to an internet image without risking any further disturbance.


Using the non-contextual results of a Google Images search to back up your case for allowing nest photographs to be displayed on WAB is a no-no. The vast majority of the Google results from "big orgs, charities, universities" etc., are taken from species accounts and educational articles, etc., so that people do not have to go out and disturb birds during their most vulnerable period!


Using a web gallery that promotes and encourages the use of a 'scoring' system for photographs is not in the best interests of the birds when it comes to nest shots.


Photographers of varying levels of camera and fieldcraft skills, using any equipment they can being encouraged to get a better photo than the next photographer? Not a good idea at all.


Nestbox cams, if installed correctly prior to the start of nestbuilding are ok, I think - but do they encourage misuse and disturbance by people who have yet to gain adequate knowledge of the target species or the equipment involved? Time will tell, I think.


Disused and old nests removed from situ? I don't see much point if a Google search will give a greater range of samples in seconds.

[PhilBriggs]

Stuart

Personally as a police wildlife crime officer I would not encourage publishing of photographs of nests etc. I have unfortunately had to deal with ‘over zealous’ photographers in the past, that although no harm intended, have on several occasions been very near to, and indeed have been, arrested for disturbance of both schedule and non-schedule species. I believe to encourage this activity could loose your site credibility and may lead to inexperienced and unlicensed photographers attempting to take the all-important ‘wow factor’ image.
Egg thieves often take photographic images of nests at there site prior to be stolen as to add to their records and prove authenticity to other egg collectors. We certainly don’t want some of the forum members being tarred with the same brush as these criminals.

Phil Briggs

[John]

Stu

As a forum based web site we have a responsibility to follow the code of conduct for photographing nests. Quite a few people here have also explained the reasons why we shouldn't be doing nest photography. I don't know of any other wildlife type forum that does allow this type of photography, so why are we considering it.

Personally I wouldn't even consider posting such photos in this forum but if you still want to check out the validity of doing so, rather than looking around various web sites to see what they do, why don't you go straight to the horses mouth and ask the experts at the RSPB what their thoughts are on the subject.

You could also poll the members on what their thoughts are but on looking at this thread alone I would say that it would be a resounding no.

John

[nightshade]

I do not think it right, as I have already said, but I do think the point about
keeping Admin "problems" out of the forum is right.
Welcome Steve A you seem to have arrived with a bang

[StuartDH]

Hi John,

The whole point of having the debate and considering the options is so that everyone can have their say. Some have PM'ed/emailed me, others have posted here, and as you'll know from the photos in the past, there are quite a few photographers who have obviously supported taking nest photos.

The topic has been opened for discussion because we are more than just a forum-based site with a pretty gallery. WAB also aims to be an educational tool with reference material that can be used in schools etc.

Some of the emails I've received have pointed to the arguments that the site could be a poorer place without bird nest photos. Here's just some of the opinions:

• One of the biggest crimes in the environment is the lack of education and interest in wildlife amongst the younger generations (which is something I personally agree with). If the photos are sourced properly then they'd be a very interesting educational tool that can serve to stimulate interest in wildlife and also raise awareness about the issues surrounding bird nests.
• If WAB has a library of images that are given away for free, rather than selling them (selling them was never an option anyway), people won't need to take their own.
• Without bird nest photos, the subject will be swept under the carpet and people will continue to take their own images.
• Nests with chicks should be kept out, but old and empty nests, webcams etc could still be kept in.
• Keep them in, but only if they're taken by WAB staff (In this case we don't really have any staff as everything in run by volunteers and as most people get involved at some point the lines are very blurry, but I think they probably mean the gallery editors, mods and admins).
• Allow them in the reference section, but not the gallery (for similar reasons to SteveA's post above)
• Do we also ban images of young animals, captive animals etc - maybe they should all still be allowed, to keep the issues alive. If the arguments against are strong enough then supply will naturally fizzle out.
• The RSPB's own rspb-images.com has many nest photos, they don't appear to have any notices, and they're not easily accessible (i.e. they're not free).
• WAB can always refer site visitors to other sources, but would have greater control of the topic (we can post our own notices) if the images are in-house.

With PMs and emails (another 6 this morning), the forum is more split than it might first appear in this thread. I've also had personal comments from two large orgs and a uni to say that it's not entirely a thumbs-down situation. It's a topic that's worthy of good debate and I'm glad that so many people have got involved. We owe it to the community to explore all oppportunities and let everyone have their say.

That said, as things currently stand, it looks likely that we'll probably be maintaining the ban on nest photos for the foreseeable future.

Stuart

[StuartDH]

Hi nightshade,

Without wanting to run off topic, as you know, WAB is very much community-driven and we're keen for as many people as possible to get involved in the admin of the site.

Our admin forums are there for design issues, trialing new features, adding/moving sections etc, so I think this topic is more than a basic admin decision. It's a topic that'll effect everyone, raising awareness of issues that many hadn't even considered. It also keeps us very transparent, there's nothing to hide and it helps explain our policy from the outset, thereby reducing the number of emails/complaints we'll get in the future.

We've always said that we aim for WAB to be 'your' site and it's one of the qualities that sets WAB apart. As a result, I think that wherever possible, it's only fair that we debate major changes amongst the community, rather than simply dictate the policy of the few (by this I mean me and the other trustees). By opening the debate we've had some good arguments for and against that will ultimately enable us to make a more informed decision.

Stu

[nightshade]

It does appear to run a lot deeper than it first appears, thanks for the explanation (AND the chance to have a say!)