Bird Nest Photos

[StuartDH]

Over the past few days we've been considering whether or not to include bird nest photos in the Gallery and have decided that, for the moment, we won't be including them in.

Across the birding world it's fairly common for bird nests to not be included in galleries, as the pictures may have been taken in circumstances that could scare parents away from their chicks and possibly abandon the nest.

In addition to this, there are various laws and regulations that make it illegal to photograph the nests of schedule 1 birds, or get too close to any nest in Scotland etc.

As a result, we've currently moved bird nest images to a hidden 'quarantine' Gallery and we won't be posting any new nest images, until we've at least found a better way of highlighting the issues

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

In addition to the above, there are also many bird nest images that are clearly taken from a distance with/without a zoom. It's very unlikely that the photographer would have caused any disturbance to the nest and it seems a shame to leave some of these great pictures out of the Gallery.

So, as well as contacting some of the large birding organisations for their advice, we'd also welcome your opinion on the subject. Please let us know what you think, for and against, having bird nest photos on the site.

Thanks

Stu

[nightshade]

I take it you mean birds on the nest shots StuDh, I do not think these are necessary but shots of end of season nests to show types and construction are useful for assisting in-season recognition it is too risky when so many species are struggling

[Helen]

It is not only Scotland where it is illegal.

"The law prohibits intentional disturbance of any species included in Schedule 1 of the Wildlife and Countryside Act 1981. This applies while such a bird is building a nest, or is in, on, or near a nest containing eggs or young.

http://www.rspb.org.uk/Images/BIRDPHOT_tcm5-43180.pdf

I think the photographing of nests should be left to the professionals who know what they are doing, and who are fully licenced to do so. This will eliminate extra work for the staff of WAB, checking up on Schedule 1 species etc, and will also elimate any grey areas that may arise.

How do we know someone isn't close to the nest when claiming they are using a large zoom? We don't.

From the RSPB site: "The birds welfare must always come first".

Let's remember, this is a Wildlife site, therefore I would imagine members consider the welfare of birds/mammals comes before the desire to get a nest photo posted in the Gallery.

Let's face it, we don't know who will join as a member in the future. What if someone posts a nests pic, and swears that he/she followed the guidrlines? How do we know they have? People can say anything on the internet.

[fbcpmike]

A Difficult one. Certainly schedule 1 bird nests should not be shown at all, but then could that not also be extended to the birds themselves ?. BBC Wildlife have in the past published an explantory guide to common birds nests showing the overall nest shape, form and building materials. Personally I would say yes but with restrictions and assurances from the photographer, but if more qualified organisations say no then I understand, this is not my field of expertise.

I have photographed them in the past (telephoto lens, with care) and in some cases it's not as if the birds are disturbed (don't jump down my throat just yet), we have a Blackbird pair, who over the last 3 years have built a nest within 10ft of our back door. We can see them and the nest, they can see us and the cat, each goes their own way without disturing the other. They are successfull as well, two broods last year, we've watched the parents come and go and the young fledge, how would that put me if we were in Scotland ?.

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

I understand the concerns and I think these and relavent advice should appear on WAB. Most of us here on WAB are responsible people with wildlife interests at heart, acting responsibly, we would not be here otherwise.

[John]

Hi Stu

The quarantine Gallery. Are the photos in a position to be looked at or are they meant to be hidden. I ask because in the opening page two of the four photos shown in the image Gallery are of Swallows in a nest.

John

[wildone]

John, I think you will find that the quarantine Gallery works in the same way as the Admin Forum. If you go to WAB without signing in you will not be able to see them.

[pheonix]

i totalally agree wih this idea, because although the chance of the average person getting to take photos of a schedule one species is very slim, the CROW act makes it illegal to recklessly disturb, damage etc any birds nest/nesting bird. and like helen said whos is to say whether someone used a scope or long lense to get a shot a worried a nesting bird by getting too close? its a tough one to call on..

[John]

Originally Posted by wildone

John, I think you will find that the quarantine Gallery works in the same way as the Admin Forum. If you go to WAB without signing in you will not be able to see them.

That's fine but my impression was that it was quarantined and hidden until a decision was made to either stay with the ban or show the photos.

John

[SteveA]

I've been an occasional visitor to this site for many months; it has been progressing, albeit with a few hiccups, quite nicely. When I saw this thread crop up, I felt it was time to make an entrance.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

Over the past few days we've been considering whether or not to include bird nest photos in the Gallery and have decided that, for the moment, we won't be including them in.

Across the birding world it's fairly common for bird nests to not be included in galleries, as the pictures may have been taken in circumstances that could scare parents away from their chicks and possibly abandon the nest.

In addition to this, there are various laws and regulations that make it illegal to photograph the nests of schedule 1 birds, or get too close to any nest in Scotland etc.

Stuart, one major reason not to show them is that it might encourage people of less integrity to attempt to emulate those shown here.

Another is the increased risk of predation if a site has been 'gardened', or the birds giving alarm calls in the presence of the photographer - these are signs that a predator would be looking and listening for.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

As a result, we've currently moved bird nest images to a hidden 'quarantine' Gallery and we won't be posting any new nest images, until we've at least found a better way of highlighting the issues

Please do not discuss administrative issues on an open forum - keep it for the admin area of the site.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

Personally, if it's legal, I'm in favour of showing the images, as long as they include a clear notice about the issues concerned. We could also add a facility for the uploader to verify that the circumstances under which the photograph was taken meets all current legislation etc. That way, every time a photo is displayed, the notice is also displayed and the topic is kept current. However, without any nest photos on the site, the topic will hardly ever come up.

Gin-traps and egg-collecting have been illegal for many decades - those laws are still being broken. People don't always take notice of notices! Disclaimers aren't going to protect the site or nesting birds from people who lie about their activities.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

In addition to the above, there are also many bird nest images that are clearly taken from a distance with/without a zoom. It's very unlikely that the photographer would have caused any disturbance to the nest and it seems a shame to leave some of these great pictures out of the Gallery.

Sorry Stuart, I think that you meant to say "with a long telephoto lens", zoom lenses can be wholly within the wide angle range. A tight crop from a photograph taken with a standard lens would look like a photo taken with a telephoto lens - it might be impossible to tell the difference with the file sizes used on this site.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

So, as well as contacting some of the large birding organisations for their advice, we'd also welcome your opinion on the subject. Please let us know what you think, for and against, having bird nest photos on the site.

What organisations have you contacted? What replies have you received so far?

I think it will be a backward step. don't do it, please.

Originally Posted by welcome email from WildAboutBritain

As a new charity, we are currently developing a number of facilities that aim to strengthen the UK's wildlife community and ultimately advance the study, enjoyment and conservation of our natural environment.

As a charity with those stated aims, you should be concerned with running this site in an impeccably professional manner. Work is still needed in the admin and technical departments to improve the running of the forum, with the best staff you can find and high ethical standards for posting.

The opening up of the Gallery to nest photographs is very likely to lead to a division of current members and increase the number of non conservation-minded individuals posting photographs here.

Many bird species are declining throughout Britain - you should not be seen to be encouraging anything which might lead to more losses.

Thanks,

Steve.

(Would you like to remove this thread and continue the discussions away from the public eye? It may be less embarrassing.)

[StuartDH]

Thanks for the comments so far, keep them coming.

Steve - It was always going to be a difficult issue, and that's why I'm keen to have the discussion out in the open so that we look at it as a community, before coming to a decision.

I'd like to explore all opportunities and consider every option before putting a final action in place. It's good to be able to hear the various opinions and consider whether to keep the images, only have them posted by verified/qualified photographers or ban them completely.

Stuart