Kilmarnock willow - worth coppicing?

[Tursiops2]

I've been doing some work in a friend's new garden. At one end of the garden, in an area destined to become a woodland/wildlife garden, the previous owner planted a weeping form of Goat willow (Salix caprea) known, I believe, as "Kilmarnock" willow. Personally, I detest these grotesque, stunted, virus-ridden distortions of nature and, from an aesthetic point of view, would be happy to get rid of it (my friend isn't bothered either way). However, S. caprea is a good wildlife plant (the bees have been enjoying the catkins recently) and I'm reluctant to uproot it unnecessarily, so I'd like to make use of it if I can.

My question is: what would be the effect of coppicing it? Would it revert to type, and send vertical shoots up from the base, or would the weeping habit manifest itself at ground level?
Or would something else entirely happen? Any thoughts?

Also, is S. caprea the only species of willow to be misused this way?

Cheers
T2

[nightshade]

If the owner is not really bothered try it,my inlaws willow never wept again
after being cut back

[m1keanderson]

I believe the Kilmarnock Willow is a weeping form of grey sallow (Salix cinerea) grafted on a standard. Coppicing it will result in stems which will not have weeping branches. Personally I agree with you that they look horrible, but if you do coppice it there might be the danger of the roots of the rootstock reverting to type and going crazy (Kilmarnock Willows do not have a very vigorous root system).

[Tursiops2]

Originally Posted by m1keanderson

I believe the Kilmarnock Willow is a weeping form of grey sallow (Salix cinerea) grafted on a standard. Coppicing it will result in stems which will not have weeping branches. Personally I agree with you that they look horrible, but if you do coppice it there might be the danger of the roots of the rootstock reverting to type and going crazy (Kilmarnock Willows do not have a very vigorous root system).

Thanks m1keanderson. It still has the label on, and I'm 95% sure it said "Salix caprea"; not that it matters, "cinerea" would be equally acceptable.
How "crazy" is "crazy"? Do you mean it might start sending up suckers all over the place? That could be a problem. It might have to go.

Cheers
Tursiops2

[m1keanderson]

My apologies - it is Salix caprea. Suckering isn't the problem, rather their ability to seek out sources of water. I have seen roots 'fur up' sewerage pipes and some have an extensive, wide, shallow root system that can suck the life out of your lawn. Then, of course, there's the subsidence (neighbour's house within 40m?)....

[Kayleigh]

I planted a native Salix caprea ( pussy willow) last year as the catkins are food for bees. Mine has not got the weeping habit. I was told I could keep it small by pruning it. The Kilmarnock is a ornamental type so like m1 said it was grafted on a standard rootstock so will not come back as a weeping tree. I thought it was only the large weeping willows that caused problems with water pipes and not the ornamental type. I mat be wrong.

[Tursiops2]

Originally Posted by m1keanderson

Suckering isn't the problem,

That's a relief, I've got enough problems in that area with rampant couch grass (ex-vegetable plot, untouched for 6 years+) without willow suckers all over the place!

Originally Posted by m1keanderson

rather their ability to seek out sources of water. I have seen roots 'fur up' sewerage pipes and some have an extensive, wide, shallow root system that can suck the life out of your lawn. Then, of course, there's the subsidence (neighbour's house within 40m?)....

The nearest house is my friend's at 25m, with new patio and outbuilding planned at ca. 20m.
The soil is light, slightly sandy, well-drained, fertile. Will this inhibit or stimulate root growth?
Will regular (yearly?) coppicing (i.e. severe pruning, Cf. Kayleigh's post) keep it under control?

[m1keanderson]

We're moving into hazy-memory territory here...

The Kilmarnock does have a relatively weak root system but from what I remember it is the scion (the grafted top part) that keeps this in check. Once this is removed the tree becomes whatever variety the rootstock is and that's when problems can occur. With any tree where there might be an issue with vigorous roots then root pruning is an option worth considering.

My guess regarding the soil is that the willow will not like it at all unless there is a water supply it can readily tap into (pipe/water table) and will sulk, be prone to disease and liable to blow over if allowed to grow to any decent size. Hopefully, someone with more experience of this type of soil will be able to give you a definitive answer (Northants is mainly clay so my experience is limited).

So, what to do? Give it a try - anything has got to be better than having a Kilmarnock Willow

p.s. Can sympathise with you on couch grass.

[Lance Morgan]

Why don't you just leave it. It will still support wildlife whether its a Kilmarnock or not and you will have the benefit of the roots being kept in check.

[Tursiops2]

Originally Posted by Lance Morgan

Why don't you just leave it. It will still support wildlife whether its a Kilmarnock or not and you will have the benefit of the roots being kept in check.

Fair comment. My objection to the plant is really only on aesthetic grounds - plans for that area aren't finalised, but it's likely to be a semi-natural, woodland/orchard/wildlife area, and I think it would look out-of-place in that setting, in its present form.

As it happens, work in that area has just been put on hold while other things take priority, so it'll probably be another year before I/we have to make any decision.

I was curious about the effects of coppicing though, and the feedback has been useful.

Many thanks
Tursiops2

[elleme]

The previous owner of my house planted a kilmarnock willow in the front garden. When it eventually blew over, unsurprising in an uphill area with high winds we were relatively new gardeners, and we didn't really worry that much about getting every bit of root out of the ground. We didn't realise they were grafted, at the time. We had serious problems with suckers for several years - I think it's OK now but it took a long time to eradicate. Initially we were just mowing/pulling out the suckers thinking that if we got rid of the upper part the bits of root might just die off. When we eventually got sick of doing this, and dug over the area, it was amazing how far the root system underneath some of the small and relatively innocent-looking suckers extended. And it was near to our house, and drains... I can understand your point about aesthetics as it's very 'suburban'-looking and not really to my taste either but it's not something I'd try to coppice. At least it's not right by someone's house, as mine was.

[Cotham Marble]

The larger willows are (were) most frequently pollarded - allowed to develop a main trunk which was then lopped at around 8 -10 feet. This certainly did not limit root growth, if anything I suspect it encouraged it as the pollards were importan in binding river banks. Withies (osiers - S. viminalis) are/were of course managed by cutting back to near ground level.

My personal (bad !) taste rather favours the weeping willow as a visual element - however they are problematic as others have already pointed out and I wouldn't consider having one in anything other than a 'park' setting. The shade they give means that virtually nothing survives beneath them, and it was 'old garden lore' that the leaves, which are high in salicylic acid, actually poison the soil. In a small garden I'd be inclined to remove the willow altogether and replace it with something more appropriate - hazel perhaps.

CM

[Tursiops2]

Thanks for further comments. It sounds like coppicing isn't a good idea and my original plan - removal - is the best option in the long term. The way things are going at the moment it could be two or three years before I need to decide. It's not doing any harm at the mo., so it can stay until then. Besides, I've just given it a good thinning out (very congested) and it's looking better than it was. Still don't like them though

T2