wildlife hedge.

[Cotham Marble]

Originally Posted by Madmills

I've not heard about elder doing that, do you have any more info on how the elders affect neighbouring plants Dave ?

Good question. There certainly is a 'tradition' of elder 'poisoning the ground' for other plants, something which also applies to Ash and Willow. In the case of willow there may be some truth behind it in that even on leaf fall, the leave contain high salycilic acid content, however for all three species the most active effect is likely to be the dense shading of their canopies acting to inhibit 'under growth' - in botanical terminology the process is described as "competitor inhibition".

Sambucus as a species is known to carry toxins, although these are not expressed in the berries, nevertheless the role of chemical inhibition of competitors through expression in soil is poorly researched (tagettes/ground ivy is established I think) and there seems to be no obvious literature which backs up the ground poisoning effect of elder. My guess is that the idea of poisoning is a hang over from the myths surrounding elder as an 'evil tree' - suicide of Judas etc. However lack of 'poisoning of itself doesn't make elder a good hedging plant and its presence in hedges is more likely evidence of elder's capacity to rapidly collonise, and of poor hedge maintenance than of deliberate planting. Of course elder is an excellent food source for birds and invertebrates, and also invertebrate habitat - it's all a matter of horses for courses of how its used.

CM

[Madmills]

Cotham Marble, i'm glad it's not just me.

I've had various sambucus in my gardens for a large number of years and haven't ever noticed anything untoward happening.

[serko]

ok I've planted most of my hedge. when i picked up the plants form the nursery they suggested I don't cut them back till about march and then only 30%. Is this the right thing to do?

[Madmills]

The nursery will have advised you on the correct pruning for the needs of those specific plants and i would suggest sticking to their advice.

If you're a experienced gardener you could do your own thing but if you're not i would definately follow their advice.

[Fauna]

Originally Posted by serko

ok I've planted most of my hedge. when i picked up the plants form the nursery they suggested I don't cut them back till about march and then only 30%. Is this the right thing to do?

This might be the right thing to do if your going to treat it like a privet hedge. I believe you want to maintain it for their fruits and wildlife potential, then i would suggest to leave it grow. If side growth becomes to much then trim these back. To lesson the impact on inverts from trimming i would suggest a September cut. Do keep and eye on Blackthorn, they will spread out suckers and can have the potential to spread out in all directions. Make sure you have not clumped all the Rosa sp to close together or they will make the hedge look gappy, i have always planted them in between the rows after planting the initial hedge.

With Elder, it becomes a problem in a life stock hedge, its to brittle to offer any sort of barrier. Also, when it is time to lay the hedge you will need to cut it right back as it will grow vigorously and crowd out its neighbouring trees/shrubs in the hedge. As it is in your garden you will be able to keep an eye on this and trim appropriately.

Regards Chris

[Cotham Marble]

Originally Posted by serko

ok I've planted most of my hedge. when i picked up the plants form the nursery they suggested I don't cut them back till about march and then only 30%. Is this the right thing to do?

I can't see any reason not to cut back now unless you are in the far north of the UK or in a very exposed location. 30% cut back after planting is to encourage side growth, in future years Fauna's advice holds good.

CM

[Fauna]

Originally Posted by Cotham Marble

I can't see any reason not to cut back now unless you are in the far north of the UK or in a very exposed location. 30% cut back after planting is to encourage side growth, in future years Fauna's advice holds good.

CM

Yes i agree, i read the post wrong. I thought it was suggested to do every year

[bigdave60dog]

Regarding Elder. Professional Hedgelayers always take them out due to this belief. I have never left them in place to test the theory as it was always expected of you to remove elders. It is true that nothing else will grow where elders are growing whereas other trees will grow up round willows and ash plants, however I cannot say that they definitely poison out other plants it is just an old tradition.
I cannot concur on their being useful for invertebrates. Black Aphids like young green elder shoots but little ale will touch it. Insects like the flowers and birds like the seeds. the wood is good for making spoons and forks with and the dry pith good for fishing floats and in the past lamp wicks. Flowers and fruit are good fro making booze too.
I would pant elder away from a hedge and encourage it to grow as tall as possible. Sheep, Cattle and horses always seem to get under elders in hot weather. Their droppings encourage nettles to grow and there develops the useful combination of food for larvae and adults of hoverflies, 4 species of butterfly etc. that you will not get with a hedge.
Happy New year,
Dave
PS choose native elder only.