Help! do a degree or not

[ecomaniac]

Hi all,

I am mature student of 31 due to complete a ND in countryside management & wildlife conservation in June with a triple distinction and have gained a NPTC 30 & 31 in chainsaws plus brushcutter and have some relevant work experience (temp rights of way officer/voluntary exp with wildife trust). Ideally I would like to get employment in an entry level job as an assistant warden/ranger but have been turned down for at least two dozen jobs since February.

When I started the ND i believed this would sufficeint along with years of work experience to get employment but I have noticed most entry level jobs want a degree?

At this stage I have a dilemma because I want to make the right decisions

I currently have two options but do not know which to take to increase my prospects:

a) I have the option to to got to uni and have conditional offers BUT im worried about time and debt: I would be 34 when I graduate and also in heavy debt but this may mean I have an advantage in employment prospects

OR

b) graduate with my ND and concentrate on lots of work experience/long term volunteering and certifiction (PA1 etc) hope this coupled with my ND is sufficient to get a job eventually. ( I.e. I may have a long-tem residential volunteer placment with the RSPB in may)

ideally I want to stop study for a while but not if it means my employabilty is limited

any advice/opinion welcome


thanks
Ecomaniac

[APC]

What area of the country are you? What college did you go to?

The problem at the moment is that local authorities are not employing at the moment due to recruitment freezes. This means that jobs coming up with National Trust, RSPB, Wildlife Trust etc. are saturated with potential recruits, often with several hundred candidates to one job.

You say that you don't have a degree at the moment. The entry-level jobs that you have seen are after a degree as standard. In my experience, entry-level jobs require a degree as "desirable" rather than "essential". When you fill out your application forms you will be referring to role profiles and person specifications. Usually these applications will be looked at by HR departments, often with no interest in conservation jobs, no interest in any jobs in fact; all they do is look for items in the person spec that you have provided evidence for. If we forget the "essential" list, and consider the "desirable" list, they will assign one point per desirable aspect. There could be 20 aspects to consider. The desirable degree will give one point out of a multitude of potential points. What I'm trying to get at is what other "desirable" qualities are more easily achievable?

You mentioned doing pesticides; This is easy to achieve (PA1 and PA6 are standard). It will take a week. Most other candidates will have this so do it to catch up with them.

Other worthwhile tickets are:

tractors (MO1 and MO1a, which includes front end loaders)

trailer licence (cat. B+E) (2 days for day and half training and 2 hour test). Plenty of candidates don't have this. Older drivers (pre-1997 licenses) will have it as standard on their license. Will cost £400-500 in total. Well worth having.

CS32 and above in chainsaw tickets. Many ranger teams contact out their tree-work for anything more than piddly things you might as well cut with a bowsaw. If you can cut bigger trees that means you can save employers money in contractor costs.

Chipper - short course, one or two days including test. Might as well do it.

Current First Aid at Work - Everyone should have this. Even non-countryside people. Therefore you should have it, because you are included in everyone. The only people who shouldn't have First Aid at Work are dead people.




You need to stand out from the other applications. Loads of people will write applications that are the same as the last person. They will have all the standard desirables. They will have some sort of diploma or degree or masters. They won't have any specialist interests. If you don't have one right now, find one. This could be as simple as wildlife photography. You might be bang into trees, beetles, recreation, heathland management, diving, water, birds, butterflies, reptiles, woodcraft, sustainable living, machinery, whatever. Anything. Now would be a good excuse to develop your interest so you can write a line or two on your personal statement and talk at length on your interview. Don't go into too much detail on this on your application. Just write a few lines, which will be enough to make them put you on the right pile. Once you have an interview, you're more than halfway there, you need only impress them with a bit of knowledge and personality. Don't overstate the "knowledge" part in the interview, to the point that you appear a know-it-all. They know you have lots of knowledge, they just want to make sure you'll fit in with the team. You'll be with the team more than your family.

Another issue is that you might not be referring to the person spec on your application. Make sure that you refer to every single aspect of it if you have even the slightest evidence of experience (don't lie though).

With regards should you do a degree, my opinion is that they are too expensive. The current situation across local authorities and some other organisations is that they are looking to streamline their job hierarchies. Middle management, i.e. senior ranger level, is thought to be under threat around my parts. This means that there is very little scope for promotion once you are in the job. Think very carefully whether earning below £15,000 for the next ten years is a worthwhile return on £27,000 of fees. You'll pay back as much as £60,000 over the lifetime of the loan. Could you get a loan and invest in other training such as the NPTC's and specialist short-courses relevant to your interests and your local area of work. £3-5,000 of NPTC's and a good attitude will get you other work while you are looking for conservation jobs. I'm self-employed on my days off working with a local arboriculturalist trying to get experience so that if my job (ranger level) gets cut, I can pursue other avenues.

In summary....

Specialist interest.

Look for training that suits your interests and will have cross-over appeal for other jobs. The market is very poor at the moment so you'll need to find something to bide you by.

Read the person spec and make sure you refer to it ALL.

[APC]

Oh I forgot to mention the volunteering thing, do it. It'll open doors for you. Residential RSPB volunteering will look good, give you experience and you'll meet people who will like to employ you.

[ecomaniac]

Hi APC, Thanks for taking the time to write, much appreciated. You have included alot that makes sense to me.

Well since I posted In have had a result...I have started employment as a seasoinal warden for three days a week (weekends and mondays) which is a fixed term contract til October. The good thing is at the moment I can do it around the remainder of my college study until I graduate in June.

Although the position involves alot of captive bird husbandry to do there is also a fair bit of wardening experience to gain with grounds maintenance (strimming, topping etc), public talks, and other duties etc so it's a start the 'industry' as I see it.

After college I'm looking at increasing my volunteering, diong some landscape jobs (I was a landscaper before i started study) and getting some jobs with local conservation contractors to get refine skills in chainsaw use and practical estate management


I'm originally from Bedfordshire but moved up to Norfolk to study at Easton College near Norwich. It's an FE college but traditionally agricultural. I was going to do a foundation degree at moulton college, Nothants but ended up doing an ND at Easton as I wasn't confident I would cope with a foundation, but I relaise now that I could have, but still I set to get good grades on the ND so I'm fairly satisfied.

I understand where your coming from with job specs and the current situation in the Industry; I have applied for at least two dozen entry levels since Feb with no leads (until now). When I apply in the future I will so will concentrate on the desirable more and hopefully be able to tick a few of as the months go on with some new tickets and the experience In have taken from the seasonal job.

I'm in agreement with you on getting as many tickets as possible; tutors and contacts in the industry have been saying the same. I will definately look in to getting the pestisides and others you mentioned asap as these, like you say, are essential in most warden/ranger positions. I will shortly be doing my CS 31 test as I have CS 30 and brushcutter all ready. Like you say, a degree is one tick on the desirable list but there are always other areas to cover such as tickets and interests etc.


As far as volunteering and interests go I have been helping Norfolk WT since 09 and have them as references so I will continue with them as much as poss around my Job. I have also been in contact with Keep Britain Tidy about leading some 'river care' project clean ups locally and things are looking positive as I had a meeting with a volunteer co-ordinator as they may set me with a leader position. You also get some training etc

I am very fond of wetlands and rivers hence the river care group and ideally would like to presue a career in that area but I relaise now thar river work is a very specialist subject and postions in that sector are thin on the ground. There is the EA but apparently hard to get into, and like you mentioned recruitment has been frozen somewhat. All the same wetland and rivers are an interest and I will continue to increase my knowledge in that area.

As far as degrees go, some fellow classmates are planning to continue study but with the tution fees, time involved (i'm 32 in July !) it may not be the best route for me. Like you, I think for practical orientated roles my ND, tickets, experience, enthusiasm and graft will get me close to where I want to be. I find may students that have done degrees either havent got to much practical knowledge and/or lack expereince both of which employers require irrelevent of qualifications.


Hod did you get your ranger job?

Cheers

EcoM

[Words]

Originally Posted by APC

Think very carefully whether earning below £15,000 for the next ten years is a worthwhile return on £27,000 of fees. You'll pay back as much as £60,000 over the lifetime of the loan.

Glad to hear that something has turned up for you Ecomaniac, but just wanted to correct the above comment. The £9k fees come in from 2012. Anyone going this year (2011 entry) will be on fees of just over £3k per annum, for the whole of your degree. So if you are still thinking of taking up one of your offers, starting in 2011 is the time to do it. And definitely not a good time to defer entry!

[Kate_Izzy]

Also on the subject of uni - the fees will be paid by student loans and you don't have to pay them back until you're earning over 21k.
So if you only ever earn below 21k, you'll never have to pay for your degree! (and you might not pay it all off even if you earn over that as the debt is wiped after a certain time)

[Words]

It takes 30 years for the debt to be written off, so don't hold your breath!

This is how it works. You pay 9% of earnings over £21k (that figure is a cash figure and won't be uplifted by inflation), so irrespective of the size of the loan your payments are linked to your earnings... it just takes longer if the loan is bigger. Interest will be charged at various rates, up to RPI + 3%, once you start paying. This means that anyone earning just over £21k will find their debt *growing* in the early years as the interest will be greater than their annual payments. The odds are that a high proportion of students will never pay off their debt. Worse, higher earners end up paying their loan more quickly, and therefore pay less overall than low earners. This penalizes people on normal wages (who pay longer, and pay more interest), and benefits the wealthy because the wealthy will pay quicker and pay less (this is completely unlike a 'graduate tax'). You do ok if you earn under £21k (probably worth about 15-17k at today's prices given current rates of inflation); but if you earn under £21k you're not really doing ok, if you see what I mean.

[ecomaniac]

Hi all,

Ive been fortunate enough to offered a place for 2011 at Worcester for a Bsc in Wildlife Conservation. Interesting to read about the tuition fees and repayments but correct me if I'm wrong don't repaymentns start when you earn £15k or more which I what I have read recently.

Eco

[nigel_b]

Congratulations on the place. I think you are right about the £15k but it only defers the repayment.

[Words]

Yes it's £15k starting point for loans for students who begin studying in 2011-12. The 21k starting points is for students who begin studying in 2012/13.