Dune Helleborine new colony.

[Dorts]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Hi Dorts,

I think you may have mis-read my post - what I saw was Marsh Fragrant orchid not Marsh Helleborine
Nonetheless, if indeed you'd like directional details to them, I'd be happy to send them to you. I've also included some photos below so you can confirm their identity, (rubbish photos due to the poor light unfortunately).

But that's interesting what you say about the cross-pollinated dunensis. It seems the boundary between the epipactis is rather blurred and it'll be facinating to see what gets published about them in the near future. Finger's crossed for the first helleborine x dunensis hybrid! ('x mikensis'?)



Mike.

Yes, I did mis-read your post, (I think I've got Epipactitis!)

It is Marsh Fragrant, (lip broader than long). I'll check to see if it has been recorded there before and get back to you if it's a new record.
Dorts.

[broadbill]

Managed to get to this site on the way back down from Scotland at the weekend - what a place! Wall to wall Helleborines and Twayblades!

Being quite new to Helleborines in general am just posting a picture of this individual which I am assuming is Broad Leaved Helleborine? To my novice eyes certainly very different to the commoner Dunes and Green Flowered at this site?



Thanks

Chris.

[Dorts]

Pleased you made it Chris. Isn't it an amazing place? Orchid's Galore!
Yes, that's one of the (rarer) Broad-leaved Helleborines at this site.
Dorts.

[broadbill]

Yes loved it! Only got to spend 20 minutes there on the long drive from Mull to Suffolk, but well worth the diversion! Thanks again for the info...

Chris.

[Sean Cole]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

Hi Dorts,

I think you may have mis-read my post - what I saw was Marsh Fragrant orchid not Marsh Helleborine
Nonetheless, if indeed you'd like directional details to them, I'd be happy to send them to you. I've also included some photos below so you can confirm their identity, (rubbish photos due to the poor light unfortunately).

But that's interesting what you say about the cross-pollinated dunensis. It seems the boundary between the epipactis is rather blurred and it'll be facinating to see what gets published about them in the near future. Finger's crossed for the first helleborine x dunensis hybrid! ('x mikensis'?)







Mike.

Hi Mike

There is a Scottish dunensis site where the hybrid between that species and E helleborine occurs.

With reference to the cross-pollination of dunensis it would seem that inland populations have up to 25% plants in which the viscidium is valid on the flowers as they open, as with the Wrexham population.

At Wrexham, for me there was worrying evidence in quite a high proportion of plants of cross-pollination beyond newly-opened flowers. This would indicate more hybridisation than is immediately evident from simple morpholgical measurement or salient appearances.

One plant with three spikes had a clear-cut helleborine spike and two that looked very like the other dunensis there.

There are populations of Epipactis in northern germany which are termed "facultatively allogamous" - meaing they change from cross pollinated to self pollinated as they age. This could describe most of the Wrexham plants. The German ones have been circumscribed as E helleborine.

As Mike says, the boundaries are rather fuzzy here, and despite the amount of crumbling pollen on the Wrexham plants I think there is more to them than meets the eye.

Sean

[treecreeper]

I devoted Saturday to looking at helleborines and left myself in a state of confusion. If it's possible to determine from these indifferent pictures, can anyone confirm whether these are all Broad-leaved Helleborines? A couple of things give me doubts:

1. Leaves were often in two ranks, or nearly so, rather that spirally arranged as books state for E. helleborine

2. In the last picture the epichile looks odd

I've posted the pics on this thread because I wasn't too far from Wrexham (I don't know the location of your new site though)

Plant 1:



Plant 2:




Plant 3:



Plant 4:





Plant 5:




Plant 6:


(this fuzzy one just for the leaf arrangement)

Plant 7:

[Dorts]

Treecreeper.Great selection of plants.
They are all Broad-leaved Helleborine - Epipactis helleborine, by far our most variable Epipactis, as is clearly shown by your photo's. They can vary greatly in flower colour, size and numbers per plant. Also lip-shape is often most variable.
But none of your plants resemble any of the other Epipactis species.
Dorts.

[treecreeper]

Thanks Dorts. None of my books give much indication of the degree of variability of E. helleborine.