Recent Orchid finds, but are they variants?

[birderbryan]

These are some of the Orchids I have found in the past few days in a disused sand and gravel pit in Lancashire. Sadly most of the Orchids are being swamped out with horsetail, silverweed, and willow shrub, and for example last year at this time there would have been close on one million plus CSO and this year you will be lucky if there will be two thousand.

Also at this site Pyramidal, Bee Orchid, Northern Marsh and Southern Marsh.

It would be great if anyone can give me any help in the identifications of the following:
(the area does have lots of CSO Variant, eg: white, white with markings etc.

1) Do you think that this is a CSO variant, and if so which variant?
2) I think it is a CSO but obviously some sort of variant?
3) Could this by any chance be a Heath Spotted Orchid?
4) Again could this by any chance be a Heath Spotted Orchid?

I know I should have got more information from leaves, stems etc, but sadly realised I can only offer the photos as seen...

[leifus]

someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say they were all just different themes on common spotted orchid. Interesting to see how purple some of them are, maybe some marsh orchid in the darker ones?

[Dorts]

An interesting group of plants which I would suggest are all hybrids, (not surprising with than number of species growing nearby!)
But it does clearly show the problems involved in trying to accurately determine what each plant is from just a photo of the plant, or part of the plant. It would be a lot easier 'on-site', but even then would still tax the most experienced of us.
My opinion is:

1. This plant is very close to Common Spotted x Northern Marsh, Dactylorhiza x venusta = D. fuchsii x purpurella. I have found a number of plants of this hybrid with the same distinctive spotting on the leaves and similar shaped lip and markings.
I think the others are the same, so-
2. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
3. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
4. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
(this is a fairly common hybrid across this part of the country).

So I believe they are all hybrids, and as the purple colour of these plants is just not found in Common Spotted I think must have come from Northern Marsh, ( rightly named purpurella!), rather than them being a 'form' of Common Spotted.
Dorts.

[leifus]

Originally Posted by Dorts

An interesting group of plants which I would suggest are all hybrids, (not surprising with than number of species growing nearby!)
But it does clearly show the problems involved in trying to accurately determine what each plant is from just a photo of the plant, or part of the plant. It would be a lot easier 'on-site', but even then would still tax the most experienced of us.
My opinion is:

1. This plant is very close to Common Spotted x Northern Marsh, Dactylorhiza x venusta = D. fuchsii x purpurella. I have found a number of plants of this hybrid with the same distinctive spotting on the leaves and similar shaped lip and markings.
I think the others are the same, so-
2. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
3. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
4. Common Spotted x Northern Marsh.
(this is a fairly common hybrid across this part of the country).

So I believe they are all hybrids, and as the purple colour of these plants is just not found in Common Spotted I think must have come from Northern Marsh, ( rightly named purpurella!), rather than them being a 'form' of Common Spotted.
Dorts.

excellently said

[Dorts]

Originally Posted by leifus

excellently said

Thanks Leif, but as we know only too well, we can never be 100% sure.
Dorts.

[leifus]

Originally Posted by Dorts

Thanks Leif, but as we know only too well, we can never be 100% sure.
Dorts.

Grr I know! As one who likes a definitive answer this is extremely frustrating!

[birderbryan]

Thanks again Dorts for the brilliant variant suggestions, which I totally now agree look like a mix with "Northern Marsh". I am pretty good with identification of Northern Marsh as a rule, but struggle with the "Southern Marsh" and when you get them together like at this site (the most northerly and most southerly of ranges) at one place it can become hard work.

But overhall, whether they be CSO's or variants, the patterns and facial pictures I get from these splendid orchids is quite phenomenal and makes everything worthwhile.

Also thanks to Leifus for your welcomed suggestions.

Bryan.