All Common Spotted - I'm not sure

[Herd900rd]

Not from this year these, but they have been bugging me for ages. Are they all Common Spotted's or is there some variety? All in Somerset. Advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Dorts]

I can confirm that they are all Common Spotted Orchids - Dactylorhiza fuchsii.
They come in an range of colours with varied markings and often cause much debate as to their identity.
Lovely photo's of some smashing Orchids.
Dorts.

[Herd900rd]

Sorry for late reply, I normally receive an e-mail when there has been activity on a post, not for this one curiously. Since posting I have seen a wildlife trust volunteer who on site said and showed me something which makes me think they might be heath spotted. Apparently they are very similar, differing only by the lowest central petal, which in the Commons is much longer and pointier. There are also hybrids to consider. This is the only difference so it is difficult to decide. Hopefully when on site again (soon now) I can have it pointed out to me again, bearing in mind what you have suggested. I was quite surprised tat the deep pinks were the same variety. The colour is the same as Early-Marsh. Is that not a possibility? It's almost as bad as train-spotting trying to pin them down.
I remain undecided, but there will be several around now for me to practice on.
Thanks for your advice. H.

[Dorts]

Hi again H.

When I first looked at your plants I only saw three photo's, I now notice that there are four photo's,
(I may well have missed the last one).

I can assure you that the first three, (the ones I first commented on), are all Common Spotted Orchids.
The fourth however is a good candidate for a Heath Spotted Orchid, though I would like more info on associated plants and habitat to be 100% sure. (was it in the same place as the other three?).

The hybrid between the two is rare, and none of your plants are Early Marsh orchids.
Dorts.

[Hypatia]

The first and fourth have a blousy lip reminiscent of heath spotted but the strong markings are very much common spotted. Is it possible that they are hybrids? Are there any heath spotted nearby?
Hypatia

[Dorts]

Originally Posted by Hypatia

Is it possible that they are hybrids? Are there any heath spotted nearby?
Hypatia

As I said in my last post, the hybrid between Common and Heath Spotted Orchids is quite rare. In my 50 years of studying our Dactyl-Orchids, I have yet to see one that is definitely Dactylorhiza x transiens.
But as you suggest, knowing more about the habitat and what was growing nearby is always a good guide the the correct ID of this sometimes difficult group of orchids.
Dorts.

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by Herd900rd

Not from this year these, but they have been bugging me for ages. Are they all Common Spotted's or is there some variety? All in Somerset. Advice would be appreciated. Thanks.

I wish I had Dort's confidence!!

When I first looked at the thumbnails I thought Common Spotted D.fuchsii as much as anything from the shape of the flower spike but then at the larger size the flowers of 1 and 4 certainly have the look of Heath Spotted D.maculata.

You don't have to invoke hybridization as a cause of the problem as both species are so variable even in pure populations.

As far as habitat goes, then if they were on alkaline soils they are almost certainly D.fuchsii because D.maculata grows almost exclusively on acid soils but D.fuchsii will also grow on neutral to acid soils (notice the almosts!).

Therefore I would definitely state that they are all D.fuchsii but at least two of them could be D.maculata.

Coincidentally I spent an hour or so today looking at plants growing in an acidic habitat and eventually decided they were all D.fuchsii except one!! If I go back when they are in fuller bloom I will probably change my mind.

Don't we love the Dactlyorhiza genus.

All the best

[Herd900rd]

Thanks for all these replies, there is certainly some debate. They aren't too far apart - a mile maybe. They are on common land - large areas of grass with wood nearby and wood edge. There is always a lot of birch which has to be controlled, plus bracken. There are patches of meadow thistle, buttercups, tormentil, lousewort, birds foot trefoil, vetch, twayblades, pig-nut around on the general area if that helps you with soil type. Whether it is acid or alkali I know not. I appreciate the point about variation within species meaning there can be a range, making lookalikes more likely. I thought the spike on the common was more v-shaped, where the heath was more u-shaped. I'll keep an eye on them and try to post some better pictures. May see some on a different site with a Willife Trust chap this week, so can be advised there.
Cheers for now. Herd.

[Dorts]

Originally Posted by ceterach

Don't we love the Dactlyorhiza genus.

Nothing like them to get a good old debate going!

As I have just mentioned in another recent thread, I've been studying them, their forms and hybrid's for over 50 years and all I have learned is what a complex and 'active' group they are.
More and more I have to just turn away from a particular plant knowing full well that it's impossible sometimes to give it anything like a specific title. And I'm by no means alone, so many experts I know do exactly the same.
It's usually only when we are in our early years of studying this group that we are bold enough to give all dactyl's a name, and find it so frustrating if we can't!
So age can bring less confidence, but also less frustration!!
Dorts.