yellow birds nest

[slim]

addition to the previous e mail. Please PM me if you want to continue this disscussion i will be glad to.

Dave

[ceterach]

Hi Dave

You have obviously taken umbrage after enquiring for info.

Let me explain my comment and address yours. With the internet it is much easier for people to discover where rare plants are and many are suffering from either being dug up or by damage to their environment due to trampling etc.

I take the personal view that caution should therefore be shown when handing out site information on plants. Yellow Bird's Nest (Monotropa species) are highly adapted to their environment and likely to suffer from trampling etc and therefore consideration should be given to the plant. No-one has a God given right to go and see a plant.

Originally Posted by slim

Right, now lets get one thing straight here. All you folks who are being very very sniffy about info...

As far as I am concerned being careful about handing out info on the location has nothing to do with being sniffy. My comment actually addressed a wider concern I haver had over the past few weeks about the naming of sites.

Originally Posted by slim

first of all you don't know me at all....

You have got it in one. One look at you previous posts and they are all requesting site info and nothing on your profile. It would have been polite to introduce yourself before asking for information.

Originally Posted by slim

i have been a countryside professional all my working life, both as a countryside ranger and now as an interpretation officer....

Big deal, I am tempted to say in that case you should know better.

Originally Posted by slim

.i'm quite sure that most of you don't actually work in conservation just do it for a hobby.

This is a rather arrogant statement. How the hell do you know what people do.

Originally Posted by slim

And secondly what the hell do you think i'm going to do with a plant of yellow birds nest eh?

Who knows? If your implication is that you would not be likely to dig it up then I will remind you that some years ago Ghost Orchid (Epipogium aphyllum) was dug up from a British site and put on sale on the continent for a large amount of money. If that can happen I am sure there are people who will have a go at Yellow Bird's Nest

Originally Posted by slim

If you don't want to share information that is all fair and proper but don't moralise about it just don't share it.

Neither Kayleigh's nor my comments were "moralising" but merely giving what I believe is a sensible warning. Just read the Lady Slipper thread on this forum a few weeks ago to see what I meant. Thanks I chose not to share.

Originally Posted by slim

I am sorry if i have offended anyone with this post but there it is.

Offended no, annoyed a little, yes, I don't like arrogance.

With regard to replying by PM, sorry I would rather do it in public, I think it is of more general interest! I might be wrong but there you go.

I hope I haven't caused further offence.

[Kayleigh]

Sorry this is not what I meant I was just saying be wary of giving out certain info on the internet be it about where badger sets are to rare wild flowers I was no way aiming this at slim..

Sorry Slim if I offended you but you must see the need to be cautious...

Really no offence was meant..

[Jim Ford]

So THAT'S what it was!

Saw this last year in Cumbria, and just thought it was probably a broomrape of some sort. Took the photo' without much thought or care - hence the O.O.F top. Since then I'd forgotton about it until this thread.

Wish I'd paid more care and attention at the time!



Jim

[ceterach]

Bang on Jim! Have a look at my avatar!

All the best

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by ceterach

Bang on Jim! Have a look at my avatar!

Yes of course!

Are they particularly rare, then?

Jim

[treecreeper]

They are quite rare. I have only found yellow birdnest once, decades ago when I was young enough to crawl under dense scrub in the hope of finding something. That was near Mold in North Wales. (Hope that doesn't count as giving site information!)

[Beekeeper]

Just to add to this thread, i did have prior information of a site for the Bee Orchid but not the exact location, thanks to Deer Stalker i do now know the exact location, my purpose for finding some is just for my own benefit of actually seeing this rare orchid in its natural habitat and of course take some pictures for posterity.

Having lived in the forest all my life this is one orchid i have never come across for some reason or another.

I do appreciate that it is important to keep sites to oneself for the reasons stated above as there are obviously some unscrupulous people around who either wish to make a quick bit of income from stealing these plants or just to dig up to maybe transplant elsewhere, of course as we know, it isn't that easy and generally unless you know what you are doing the plant will die.

Mybe the original poster had good intentions but perhaps went about repling to others in totally the wrong way.

But as the reply was an attack on other members all of whom have treated me with respect and a friendly helpful disposition in this excellent forum, perhaps it is right in this case to be very careful.

BK

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by ceterach

I take the personal view that caution should therefore be shown when handing out site information on plants...

As far as I am concerned being careful about handing out info on the location has nothing to do with being sniffy. My comment actually addressed a wider concern I haver had over the past few weeks about the naming of sites.

you have a point up to a point, so long as the information that is shared would otherwise be secret - but for example it took me less than a minuite to find the following via google, and thus i cant help feeling that anyone looking to steal or otherwise interfere with it would go that route rather than going to the bother of joining wab to ask

The distribution information from the Centre for Environmental Data and Recording (CEDaR) records the Northern Ireland population in two areas. Apart from a recent discovery on the Antrim coast, all the occurrences are in County Fermanagh. Yellowbird’s nest has been known in the Lough Erne basin since 1904 and has been recently identified at three sites at this location . However, the oldest reliable record for Northern Ireland refers to a hazel/oak wood in County Londonderry at Errigal Banks 1944 (Stewart et al., 1992). In County Fermanagh, a population of plants consisting of over 100 spikes found beside Castlehume Lough in 1980 was later destroyed in the construction of a golf course. Yellow bird’s nest was located at Castle Caldwell and Carrickreagh under beech and at Knockninny under hazel in 2002 (Northridge & Northridge, 2002) and it has been found at Correl Glen

therefore we do need to strike a balance between being cautious in sharing info and not appearing unfreindly or unhelpful to new members

Also I think slim has a good point that if anyone knows a location but isnt prepared to share it then this is fair enough , but in that case perhaps they should just say nothing as saying "well i know where you can find x but i'm not prepared to tell you" doesnt look too clever and is singly unhelpful to all concerned.

[ceterach]

Hi eeyore

Don't get me wrong, as other members of the forum will tell you I have both received and given out site information on this forum and I have no qualms about it in most cases.

I do however think that there was a drift toward mentioning specific sites for rare species in open mails on this forum that was going too far. For example in one thread a specific site for Lady's Slipper Orchid was mentioned at the same time as pointing out it had been dug up! Not cause and effect in this case but somewhere along the line it happened.

I felt that Kayleigh's initial comment was bang on in response to instant offers of information (and I don't know why she apologized for it) and I felt support was appropriate.

Originally Posted by eeyore

you have a point up to a point, so long as the
information that is shared would otherwise be secret - but for example it took me less than a minuite to find the following via google, and thus i cant help feeling that anyone looking to steal or otherwise interfere with it would go that route rather than going to the bother of joining wab to ask

I absolutely agree but there is a difference between "growing in a wood" and "on the right hand side of the footpath 100yds in" which is the sort of advice one might give or receive.

Originally Posted by eeyore

therefore we do need to strike a balance between being cautious in sharing info and not appearing unfreindly or unhelpful to new members

Again I agree but most new members do at least attempt to introduce themselves in some way before asking for favours. When slim posted his request I checked his profile and his earlier posts: no profile and all his previous posts requested sites for rare species! Yellow warning flag to me.

Originally Posted by eeyore

Also I think slim has a good point that if anyone knows a location but isnt prepared to share it then this is fair enough , but in that case perhaps they should just say nothing as saying "well i know where you can find x but i'm not prepared to tell you" doesnt look too clever and is singly unhelpful to all concerned.

I don't think the latter was mentioned until he sent out, what I still believe was a rather arrogant and presumptive response, i.e. rude. If he really was countryside ranger and now an interpretation officer I do think he should have known better.

We live in a world where, as you say, the sites of rare plants and animals can be found quite easily on the web and those same rare (and not so rare) species continue to be affected by digging up in the case of plants and nest robbing in the case of birds. Therefore anyone asking for information has to be treated with care.

In the case of Yellow Bird's Nest it is a local rather than rare plant that is highly adapted to very specific habitats. In theory no-one should want to dig it up!! Unfortunately you only have look at some of the terrestrial orchid growers fora to see that it has the same sort of fascination as many orchids. After a web search I would suggest seed is not easily available so where do they get their starting material from?

People should expect to have to earn your trust and respect before receiving what is after all privileged information (at least I think so). Although it is difficult to do this electronically I certainly don't think anyone can expect info in the way slim did. It is interesting that he/she has not yet responded to my mail, I would have thought that as an adult (obviously had/has time for a career) he would have done.

I also think that WAB should have a clearly stated policy toward open site info, what information people exchange by PM is up to them but at least make sure a warning is out there!

All the best