Botanical terminology -ARGGHHHH

[Deb London]

Subtitle - do they make it up as they go along?

I've been sitting here for half an hour trying to decide what pinnately lobed means. I've Googled it and looked it up the old-fashioned way too - nothing is making sense. Two terms for ear? Why not just say lobed. Can anyone expain (best explain in words of few syllables if possible)?

Then as I was perusing the plates of a book to try and work it out, I came across two real humdingers!



Serrate-dentate

vs

Dentate-serrate



What's the difference?



Help, I'm getting a strange sinking feeling.

Deb

[Hornbeam]

I know what you mean and that is why I can't get on with botanic keys. Not only are these pig-Latin terms confusing to plebs like me, but the wretched taxonomists keep changing the names of species and whole families. There will be even more changes when identification by dna analysis really kicks in. To quote from the introduction of the excellent new Collins Flower Guide " Latin names have a depressing habit of changing with irritating frequency."

I love the good old fashioned imprecise folk names that have endured for centuries. Problem with them is that the names are often very local - "cuckoo pint" has 90 recorded local names. I sometimes think that we are far too concerned with names and specific ID. Let's just ENJOY wild flowers.

[Lancashire Lad]

Hi Deb,

Pinnate means having separate leaflets along both sides of a common leaf stalk. (Or alternative meaning of separate veins along each side of a common mid rib of a leaf).

Lobed, in this case, is descriptive of how such leaflets will look. So, pinnately lobed = having lobe like separate leaflets along a common stalk. (Although even that isn't completely a clear cut case! when we add certain ferns into the equation. )

Serrate = saw-toothed margin.
Dentate = toothed margin.

Serrate-dentate = having a saw-toothed margin, but edging towards toothlike.

Dentate-serrate = having a toothed margin, but edging towards saw-tooth like.

If you are really keen on knowing what botanical terms mean, I would heartily recommend the book "The Cambridge Illustrated Glossary Of Botanical Terms", by Michael Hickey & Clive King. It isn't cheap, but it is certainly the best source for this type of information. (The book has a fully descriptive glossary, as well as diagrams showing exactly what each term means).

Regards,
Mike.

[Deb London]

Thank you both for your sympathy.

Mike - thank you for the explanation of serrate/dentate. I understand now. And the difference, according to my book (for anyone who might be interested) is:

Serrate - acute teeth pointing towards the apex.
Dentate - acute teeth pointing outwards.

With the "pinnately lobed" term, maybe I am getting confused over compound leaves, as I had assumed that the leaflets always had to have petioles. Is the answer simply that this is not always the case?

[Lancashire Lad]

Originally Posted by Deb London

....With the "pinnately lobed" term, maybe I am getting confused over compound leaves, as I had assumed that the leaflets always had to have petioles. Is the answer simply that this is not always the case?

Although the definition of pinnate includes the words "separate leaflets", there are flowers & ferns having leaves/fronds described as being bi-pinnate / tri-pinnate where the pinnae don't have distinct individual petiole, and the lamina "blends" into the adjacent pinna. (I suppose it is in these cases when the alternative definition of "separate veins along each side of the mid rib vein" would be the valid one).

Regards,
Mike.

[Deb London]

Thank you Mike, you have given me an explanation that I understand.

I will look into that book you recommend because there is so much to learn. One book I have has a good glossary, but even that one misses out lamina, for example. Thank goodness for Google (except WHAT have they done will Google images? Bring the old one back pleeeease).

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by Deb London

Thank goodness for Google (except WHAT have they done will Google images? Bring the old one back pleeeease).

Fortunately, at the bottom of the page of Google thumbnails, there is a 'Switch to Basic Version' link. Unfortunately it doesn't seem possible to set this in preferences.

Regarding botanical terminology, I quite understand the original feelings, but as I write quite a lot of descriptions for different purposes, I regularly start out trying to use plain English, but eventually, the precision I need forces me into more technical language. Sometimes it is inevitable.

Alan

[Deb London]

Thanks for the advice about Google. The "switch to standard" is temporary and the link is at the bottom of the page. I have to wait for the page to load before I can reach it, and that can take a while. And I have to do this every time I launch the browser.

Another thing that people can try is to use Firefox, where they can use an add-on that splits the pages up as before - this is the solution that "technical support" here has recommended.

Alan, you are absolutely right of course, we do need technical language. I think that my take-home message has been that this is not readily available on the internet, and for people serious in their pursuit of botany, they might need to get some reference books.

[loripo]

Originally Posted by Deb London

(except WHAT have they done will Google images? Bring the old one back pleeeease).

I'm still getting the Classic layout (on IE7) - I wonder why? I've seen how the new one looks and no-one seems to like it. I use that a lot when I've had something IDd just to see more images alongside mine.

PS There is a glossary on WAB's Home page for each section, but it isn't complete. For example it doesn't have 'pinnate' and I'm not sure if you need special acces to add any.