Tyne or Narrow Lipped Helleborine?

[KeenTeen17]

I went up to Northumberland today and found these Helleborines they were growing under Birch trees next to the River Tyne. The records for the site say it is Narrow Lipped Helleborine and also Mike Foley (author of orchids books) says its Narrow Lipped Helleborine as well. The only problem is that one venerable member of our party said it was the Tyne Helleborine due to the sandy habitat and proximity to the River Tyne.


The leaves were held erect.

[leifus]

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

I went up to Northumberland today and found these Helleborines they were growing under Birch trees next to the River Tyne. The records for the site say it is Narrow Lipped Helleborine and also Mike Foley (author of orchids books) says its Narrow Lipped Helleborine as well. The only problem is that one venerable member of our party said it was the Tyne Helleborine due to the sandy habitat and proximity to the River Tyne.


The leaves were held erect.

i thought you went to keswick?

and im not sure btw

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by leifus

i thought you went to keswick?

and im not sure btw

Its only a few miles from Keswick. But the border changes to Northumberland. I PMed you coordinates

[leifus]

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

Its only a few miles from Keswick. But the border changes to Northumberland. I PMed you coordinates

how many miles? :L

and thanks

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by leifus

how many miles? :L

and thanks

aah

Just google mapped it and it came up with 40. something miles. Its hard to judge distance on those windy roads. Its near Alston

[leifus]

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

aah

Just google mapped it and it came up with 40. something miles. Its hard to judge distance on those windy roads. Its near Alston

hahaha thought so

shame...will have to wait for another year

creeping lt still on the cards though

[KeenTeen17]

Now I am slightly confused. Just been browsing the Gallery and Mike (young hunter) went to the same reserve and uploaded them as Tyne Helleborine

[ceterach]

KT

I am surprised you are only slightly confused!!!

I assume you are taking about the orchid known as "E.youngiana" (sometimes), in which case you don't need to spend much time reading to find out everyone else is confused!

Your picture looks more like classic E.leptochila to me anyway but since E.youngiana has been suggested to be a hybrid between that and E.helleborine (or E.helleborine crossed with E.dunensis or E.phyllanthes), who knows.

"due to the sandy habitat and proximity to the River Tyne." is not really a good basis for identification although it has been suggested that the species is only a habitat variant!

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by ceterach

KT

I am surprised you are only slightly confused!!!

I assume you are taking about the orchid known as "E.youngiana" (sometimes), in which case you don't need to spend much time reading to find out everyone else is confused!

Your picture looks more like classic E.leptochila to me anyway but since E.youngiana has been suggested to be a hybrid between that and E.helleborine (or E.helleborine crossed with E.dunensis or E.phyllanthes), who knows.

"due to the sandy habitat and proximity to the River Tyne." is not really a good basis for identification although it has been suggested that the species is only a habitat variant!

No I'm talking about the Tyne Helleborine. They aren't sure if its a variation of Dune Helleborine or a species altogether. It actually doesn't exist officially yet. It features in the Harrap Guide under Dune Helleborine. In my understanding from that book the Young's is either a species separately or a variation of Broad Leaved Helleborine

Now even more confused though thanks for confirming they are E. leptochila

[the young hunter]

Hi,

The 'Tyne' Helleborine which is by the way only an unofficial name (as it hasn't yet been given a scientific one) is a variation of the Dune Helleborine. Originally (up until 1993) it was assumed to be Narrow-lipped helleborine simply growing in a different habitat (heavily contaminated magnesium gravelly soil under birch and alder) to the typical southern habitat of calcareous beech or hazel woodland upon thin soil cover. It does share the same pointed, unfolded lip and general appears the the same anatomically. After genetic research however, it was shown to be most closely related to the Dune helleborine with only slight genetic variation representing only a recent evolutionary divergence from the Dune helleborine, hence it is best described as the inland 'form' of the Dune helleborine and does not yet contitute as a separate species. Though these scientists often change their minds with orchids, paricularly epipactis

'Young's' helleborine has nothing to do with this but it too is in a similar situation although it does have enough genetic separation from the Broad-leaved helleborine to constitute it as a subspecies. That's why there's been a lot more controvesy about it since it is closer to species status than the 'Tyne' helleborine.

Mike