medick and myosotis ID

diggleken · #1 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 05:16 PM

Hello all,
Water forget me not seems right for this one - growing right at the waters edge, leaf structure and flower looks right,
Medick on bare ground, unsure which one, south pennines, this week.
Sorry about poor pics, but grateful for views/confirmation.
Thanks
Ken

treecreeper · #2 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 05:53 PM

Is the second one definitely a medick? It looks like Lesser Trefoil Trifolium dubium (note terminal leaflet (apparently) on longer stalk than side leaflets)

leifus · #3 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 06:38 PM

1 water forget-me-not
2 lesser trefoil (hard to see end of leaves in photo though)

Chris Yeates · #4 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leifus

1 water forget-me-not
2 lesser trefoil (hard to see end of leaves in photo though)

no problem with Trifolium dubium . . . but which 'water forget-me-not'? curse of English names . . . .

is it Myosotis scorpioides, M. secunda, M. laxa or M. stolonifera? all are species of wet places . . . . or am I being really dumb here

Chris

leifus · #5 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Yeates

no problem with Trifolium dubium . . . but which 'water forget-me-not'? curse of English names . . . .

is it Myosotis scorpioides, M. secunda, M. laxa or M. stolonifera? all are species of wet places . . . . or am I being really dumb here

Chris

M.scorpioides is water forget-me-not
M.laxa is tufted fmn
M.secunda is Creeping fmn
M.stolonifera is Pale fmn

hope this helps

KeenTeen17 · #6 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 07:20 PM

I think its M. scorpiodes due to the large flowers

leifus · #7 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

I think its M. scorpiodes due to the large flowers

that's what made me come to that conclusion

diggleken · #8 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 08:23 PM

Thanks everyone.
Lesser trefoil, yes, I agree completely, Trifolium dubium - Chris, as you make the point, english names can be a prob, but I dont think quite as bad as for fungi.
Fungi seem to be sometimes different from book to book and seem to be made up sometimes to suit a non-scientific , more laymans approach, when there is no long established such description, which is why Jordan largely steers clear I suspect.

flowers dont have the same extent of an issue, as they are so often bound in folklore and such older meanings and remedies so dont need 'new' common names.
And yes, I know fungi do too, but....... oh no ......what argument might I have started!
As for the Myosotis, scorpioides was what I meant and thought it was and I'm glad we all agree.

Cheers everyone
Ken

Chris Yeates · #9 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

I think its M. scorpiodes due to the large flowers

can you really tell what the flower size is anyway?

I would need more info to be happy with an ID of what can be a tricky group (with the additional complication of potential hybrids between scorpioides and laxa)

I think you're probably right - but a botanist who taught me a lot years ago always used to say, when you said "I think this is (species A). . . " - "give me 5 good reasons"

Chris

JennyS · #10 (**permalink**) 17-06-2009, 11:54 PM

Quote:

I would need more info to be happy with an ID of what can be a tricky group (with the additional complication of potential hybrids between scorpioides and laxa)

To be sure of this lot you really need a good close-up to see what the hairs on upper and lower stems are like, and in the case of possible hybrids the seed heads as the hybrid is usually much less fertile ........