Violet Hells in Bucks

[KeenTeen17]

Originally Posted by Ghost Hunter

Thanks to Mike and the Mods for removing the site information.

Mike - the Harraps' book is in the process of being revised for an updated edition next spring. May I humbly point you to the acknowledgements page for their information on Ghost Orchid.....whoops!

In my opinion there is as much chance of Ghost reappearing in Herefordshire as the Chilterns, but unfortunately very few people look, as the 1982 site is unsuitable these days as are the Shropshire sites of the late 19th Century.

The locus classicus near Tedstone is lovely though, but last year's floods made it inaccessible at the key time (I went two days afterwards and it was awful to see the devastation).

But there are a few places with suitable habitat for those needle-in-a-haystackers out there!

Sean

YOu-ve found ghost orchid!? you NEED to report that to the BSBI - it is believed to be extinct. All botanists should know about it because it is like the holy grail of orchids.

[ceterach]

Ah but there is extinct (as in Summer Ladies Tresses) and then there is Ghost Orchid. I am sure you have read it's history in the UK! A very interesting plant.

All the best

[the young hunter]

Originally Posted by KeenTeen17

YOu-ve found ghost orchid!? you NEED to report that to the BSBI - it is believed to be extinct. All botanists should know about it because it is like the holy grail of orchids.

no no, its not been found KeenTeen17, I was simply listing the past sites, one of which happens to be near ludlow - a town near me

someday it will found again though


mike

[Pete Collins]

Originally Posted by Pete Collins

One of my favourite walks takes me past that pub, I'll have to do it again soon and look for the Helleborines. I'd wondered where I might see them in the Chilterns. Thanks for the info - nice photos, too!

Today I did a long walk that took me to the location mentioned by The Young Hunter (details of which have now been removed). I spotted about a dozen of what I think are helleborines there, the first I've ever seen. Unfortunately the photos I took were very disappointing, so I can only assume they were the Violet Helleborines. This was the best photo I got:



I saw what I assume where the same type of Helleborine in a couple of other places too, just a few miles away. Again, the photos I took proved to be very poor for identification purposes, unfortunately. These were the best photos I managed:





Not knowing much about wildflowers, and never having seen a Helleborine before, I'd be very grateful if someone could confirm they are Helleborines, even if the photos aren't good enough to be more specific than that! Thanks!

[IanS]

Yep they are them. Violet helleborines, lots about in the Chilterns at the moment...

[Pete Collins]

Thanks IanS. As you say, there must be a few about in the Chilterns at the moment, as I came across two lots before I reached the spot The Young Hunter had mentioned. All were clearly visible from roads or footpaths, I wasn't hunting around looking for them. I'll look out for more next time I go walking.

Thanks again, The Young Hunter, for telling me about them.

[the young hunter]

It's no problem! I'm really glad someone else had the chance to go and see all the helleborines in their full glory

Indeed they were very visible from the road in 2 lots along the lane (even in bud in July). Most will have gone over now but there were soooooo many - I've never seen or even heard of violet helleborines in such numbers. I think they have benefitted from another wet year.

mike

[Jim Ford]

I've noticed that they tend to be concentrated on roadsides, and investigating further into the woods doesn't reveal any others. I wonder if the (minute) seeds get dragged along by vortices created by traffic, thus distributing them along road verges? I've noticed this effect with other plants, particularly dandelions.

Jim

[the young hunter]

That is a very interesting point Jim, I could certainly imagine that being the case.

Also, first time I saw a violet helleborine was in a small wood in Worcs. last year - this specimen was in the center of the wood and it was very weedy and moth-eaten, it was also the only one there. Maybe the roadside is also a better habitat in some way as the plants are often huge, very robust and commonly have more than 3 spikes per plant.


mike

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

ludlow - a town near me




mike

Ah, Ludlow, I love it. The only place that I was offered change (I was dressed rather rurally) In Rabbit snares or money. Absolutely true, about (gulp, it can't be) 30 years ago!

[the young hunter]

hahaha, that's an interesting story

Ludlow is a great little town and great for river wildlife - I think the river is called the Teene, haven't been there for ages.


mike

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

hahaha, that's an interesting story

Ludlow is a great little town and great for river wildlife - I think the river is called the Teene, haven't been there for ages.


mike

It is delightful. The other thing I was told was "Never mention work to a Ludlow mon". I would move there tomorrow, Shropshire is so... Shropshire. Both my daughters were born there, except for the eldest.

[the young hunter]

I really like the old houses that are all over the town and the great views you can get from the hills around it.

That's a funny thing to say Do 'Ludlow mon' not like to work for a living then?

Talking of Shropshire. Wenlock Edge is my nearest orchid hot-spot - I found 17 Greater-butterfly orchids, 1 Birds-nest orchid and hundreds of Twayblade there this year - completely by accident!! I felt like Rex Graham, (discoverer of the second military orchid site and 25 ghost orchids). By the way, all those species are fairly hard to find in the midlands, especially the Birds-nest, that's why it was such a triumph

mike

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

haven't been there for ages.

Define 'ages' for a 16 year old!
;^)

Jim

[the young hunter]

5 years?


mike

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by the young hunter

5 years?

Five summers? Oh vain and callow youth, 'tis but the mere blink of an eye!
;^)

Jim

[the young hunter]

hahaha, I was expecting that reply




mike

[Pete Collins]

Having gone all the way to near Princes Risborough to look for my first Violet Helleborines on Friday, today I found one just a couple of miles from where I live!

It was here in Bedfordshire, but only a few miles from Bucks and still in the Chilterns. And picking up on Jim Ford's point earlier, it was another roadside location.

[the young hunter]

Indeed they have done extremely well this year (because of the excess rain I think).

This is again also proof of gathering evidence that Jim has made a profound discovery in the seed dispersal process of epipactis purpurata!



mike

[Ghost Hunter]

No, I'm afraid not Mike.

Whilst Jim does have a valid point with regard to the draught created by passing cars, I have seen Violet helleborine at five sites where the plants are deep in Woodland nowhere near roads.

This in fact their preferred habitat.

The fact that they are noted by roads may be a consequence of a couplle of factors:

1. More people to spot them because they are easily seen from cars; this makes it seem that there ar emore by roads than there actually are

2. They are in fact growing in their preferred deeply shaded woodland habitat but it just happens a road has been cut through the middle of it!

Remember that to germinate Violet helleborine needs the correct mycorrhizal host, so disperasl on its own is not a guarantee of subsequent plants. From memory these hosts are associated with the roots of trees (especially Beech and Oak) rather than arbitrary man-made boundaries such as roads.

One of my theories was that Violet helleborines that lack chlorophyll were caused by the chlorine from Road salt spread in the winter onto verges. However, this turns out not to be true. Although the two sites where I have seen this variant wer eboth right by roads, it also occurs in colonies deep within woodland, so is more likely to be associated again with the fungal host.

Don't even get me started on my Ghost orchid theories......

Cheers

Sean

[the young hunter]

Well then, you must be right

It sounded like a logical argument to be fair

I don't want to get you started on Ghost Orchids! We could be here forever!


mike

[IanS]

Originally Posted by Ghost Hunter

One of my theories was that Violet helleborines that lack chlorophyll were caused by the chlorine from Road salt spread in the winter onto verges. However, this turns out not to be true. Although the two sites where I have seen this variant wer eboth right by roads, it also occurs in colonies deep within woodland, so is more likely to be associated again with the fungal host.

I would expect that the lack of chlorophyll in the rosea variety is more to do with genetics than the fungal host. A mutation(s) will have occurred which prevents the plant producing chlorophyll. As the plant can and does gain a lot of it food from the fungal partner, the lack of chlorophyll will not kill the plant off. 'Normal' chlorophyll lacking plants (mutants) would never get past the seedling stage as they die once their seed food source is used up.

[Jim Ford]

The rosea that I saw, although tall, was quite lax and unable to support itself without the help of the surrounding cage. I suspect that although it can obtain carbohydrates to produce cellulose from nearby trees via the mycorrhizal fungi, without the ability to supplement this by photosynthesis it is inadequate to produce robust growth.

Jim

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Ghost Hunter

Whilst Jim does have a valid point with regard to the draught created by passing cars, I have seen Violet helleborine at five sites where the plants are deep in Woodland nowhere near roads.

When I became aware that the colonies I observed were distributed on the road verges, I made a point of exploring much deeper into the woods. Although there was no apparent difference in the habitat, I didn't find any Violet Helleborines deeper than (say) 5 meters from the roadside.

Jim