Hybrid Woundwort? and OXford Ragwort?

[jhewitt15]

I went to a local nature reserve today - being told that betony grows in it. The closest thing we found was this



Its definitely not marsh woundwort because the flowers are too dark. Is it the hybrid between hedge and marsh? It was everywhere - at least 100

I also found this ragwort . Is it oxford ragwort?

[AlanS]

Hi,

I wouldn't rule out Marsh Woundwort (Stachys palustris) simply on colour - it CAN have darker flowers, though I agree that these are darker than the typical plant.
However, the patterning of the flower also suggests it is the hybrid (Stachys x ambigua).

The hybrid is very variable and some clones can resemble S. palustris very closely (which means that records of S. palustris are quite often wrong, as the hybrid is common and can persist independently). The lower leaves should be stalked, of course, though we cannot see these in the photographs.

So yes, on balance, I would say this is the hybrid.

The ragwort is Common Ragwort (Senecio jacobaea).
A good tip for Oxford Ragwort is that the involucral bracts (sepal-like structures enclosing the flower-head) have distinct black tips.

Alan

[Peter W]

My initial thought on the Ragwort was that it is Hoary Ragwort (Senecio erucifolius).

The leaves are narrow and pointed, possibly inrolled underneath, whereas the leaves of Common Ragwort have a blunter termination that often looks like a duck's foot.

Also I could not see any black tips on the involucral bacts which I believe both Oxford & Common Ragworts have, but not Hoary.

Peter

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by Peter W

My initial thought on the Ragwort was that it is Hoary Ragwort (Senecio erucifolius).

The leaves are narrow and pointed, possibly inrolled underneath, whereas the leaves of Common Ragwort have a blunter termination that often looks like a duck's foot.

Also I could not see any black tips on the involucral bacts which I believe both Oxford & Common Ragworts have, but not Hoary.

Peter

Yes Peter, you could be right on this. S. jacobaea varies a lot in leaf-shape and can get very close to S. ercucifolius, and my initial feeling was that this is one of those forms. However, on re-examining the photograph at its largest magnification, I do agree that it could well be true S. ercucifolius. Difficult to see the involucre clearly.

S. jacobaea (and S. erucifolius) can have browned tips to the involucral bracts, but neither species has the conspicuous black tips seen in Oxford Ragwort.

S. jacobaea & S. erucifolius are supposed not to hybridise, but I do notice that "difficult" populations are most likely to occur when both species are present, and a former project student of mine showed reasonably convincingly that the aquaticus-jacobaea hybrid can exist not only as obvious hybrids but also as populations that would easily be passed over as S. jacobaea.

I have always intended to look more at the jacobaea-erucifolius interface, but I live at the wrong end of the country!

Alan

[leifus]

i agree with peter saying that the ragwort is hoary ragwort - interesting tip on oxford ragwort alan - thanks