Which Bellflower? (Oh no! Not again!)

[Pete Collins]

I know there were some interesting threads last year about differentiating between Nettle-leaved Bellflowers and Giant Bellflowers, so I apologise for bringing the subject up again. But I've been rather confused by these two plants that I found on Friday.

The first one was at Totternhoe, Bedfordshire - a very chalky habitat. It was almost 5ft tall. The corolla was about 45mm long (sorry for mixing my measuring units!) which would suggest Giant Bellflower. The leaves were not very deeply toothed (in my inexpert opinion), again suggesting Giant Bellflower. But the basal leaves seemed cordate, implying Nettle-leaved Bellflower.

1a

1b

1c

1d

1e

1f


The second one was at Sewell, Bedfordshire - again, a very chalky habitat. It was 3-4ft high, and I think the corolla was shorter (but I forgot to measure it). Again the leaves were not very deeply toothed, but the basal leaves seemed cordate.

2a

2b

2c

2d

2e

[Jez]

1. I'd go for Giant Bellflower as the leaves are stork from the plants stem, the calyx doesn't appear either, to be hairy all over.

2. The Calyx does seem to be hairy all over and the leaves do not seem to stork from the stem which indicates to me that it is the opposite plant-Nettled Leaved Bellflower.

[Pete Collins]

Thanks Jez! I've looked at the photos in close-up on my PC and you're correct about the calyxes. The first is not hairy, the second is hairy.

I vaguely remembered hairyness came into it somewhere, but couldn't find it in my books. I've just checked the thread I started when I found a Nettle-leaved Bellflower last year, when AlanS (who sadly doesn't seem to be posting anymore?) quoted the hairy/non-hairy calyx thing from another reference book.

I hope other people agree with us, as I've not come across a Giant Bellflower before! It would make four new flowers for me from my walk on Friday (plus two new moths!).

[Jez]

I do hope so Pete. 4 new plants is good going for one days walk and Giant Bellflower is a conspicuously attractive plant. Fingers crossed!

[tameblackbirds]

1st plant looks like Nettle-leaved Bellflower to me as it is hairy and very blue. Giant belflower paler and sepal flower hairless. The second one could be Clustered bellflower this does grow on chalky soil. where the flowers more clustered at the top? The stigmas in this plant form a spike to dust the pollen onto visiting insects.

[RobSutton]

I must admit I'm not very familiar with Nettle-leaved Bellflower - it doesn't reach up here. I am though pretty familiar with Giant Bellflower and I'm not wholly convinced your first is Giant Bellflower - the flower colour seems too deep. The Giant Bellflower we get round here is much paler, sometimes almost white. Secondly the base of the lower leaves seem too heart shaped.

Your photo:



My photo of Giant Bellflower:



Having said all that - the size of the flower seems closer to Giant Bellflower

[Pete Collins]

Originally Posted by tameblackbirds

1st plant looks like Nettle-leaved Bellflower to me as it is hairy and very blue. Giant belflower paler and sepal flower hairless. The second one could be Clustered bellflower this does grow on chalky soil. where the flowers more clustered at the top? The stigmas in this plant form a spike to dust the pollen onto visiting insects.

No, I'm pretty sure it's not Clustered Bellflower. That's the one Bellflower I'm quite familiar with, as I see it a lot around here. As you say, it likes chalky soil - in fact I saw some at the same site as the first flower. Apart from anything else my second flower was too tall, about 3-4 feet, whereas Clustered Bellflower only goes up to about 1ft (I have seen it grow to 1ft, but at the moment all the ones I've seen have been only a few inches tall).

[Jez]

Again the leaves on plant no.1 form a stem which suggests Giant, another factor looking at the picture is the leaves also do not seem to be as deeply notched as NLB.

[RobSutton]

Originally Posted by Jez

Again the leaves on plant no.1 form a stem which suggests Giant, another factor looking at the picture is the leaves also do not seem to be as deeply notched as NLB.

I think it's not so much whether there is a stem but what happens as the stem becomes the leaf blade on the middle to lowest leaves on the stem. In Giant Bellflower it tapers in gradually whereas Nettle-leaved Bellflower has a cordate (heart-shaped) base to the leaf according to the books. Pete's pictures seem heart shaped rather then tapering.

[Pete Collins]

Originally Posted by RobSutton

... the base of the lower leaves seem too heart shaped.

... the size of the flower seems closer to Giant Bellflower

Hi Rob,

I remember you contributed to the threads on this topic last year! Your photos were very helpful.

Your points that I've quoted above are exactly why I'm a bit confused! But as Jez has just said (agreeing with one of my points) none of the leaves appear to be deeply notched. Here are the leaves from the plant I found last year that was finally agreed to be Nettle-leaved Bellflower (Tiggrx actually went and had a look at it!):

[RobSutton]

Originally Posted by Pete Collins

Hi Rob,

I remember you contributed to the threads on this topic last year! Your photos were very helpful.

Your points that I've quoted above are exactly why I'm a bit confused! But as Jez has just said (agreeing with one of my points) none of the leaves appear to be deeply notched. Here are the leaves from the plant I found last year that was finally agreed to be Nettle-leaved Bellflower (Tiggrx actually went and had a look at it!):

Hi Pete

I must admit the leaves don't look as "cut" as last years and the size of the flowers is closer to Giant Bellflower so I'd join you in the confused state.

What normally happens is at this point is that an expert botanist steps in and says something completely different or points out some unique feature that nobody else has spotted or raises the issue of hybrids or escaped garden plants. My problem is that as I don't venture down south very often I never get to see things like Ivy-leaved Bellflower.

Someone will know!

[Pete Collins]

Thanks Rob - I'm sure aeshna5 or Tiggrx or some of our other experts will be along soon!

Thank you all for your comments so far, anyway.

[rscott74]

Nice to see this raising its head again. I started the thread last year after finding Nettle leaved up here in the north east. My inexpert view is the first is not nettle leaved - I recall the the flowers occur down the stem at a number of points where the leaves join the stem and aren't totally at the top. Also I've always found the plant in shady areas.
I am still observing the plants up here - they look very healthy but are not yet flowering. When they do I'll certainly put some images on the earlier thread. Perhaps the debate will continue!

[rscott74]

I realised that when I visited 'my' plant on 15th June I took some images. I still assume it's Nettle leaved Bellflower and these might help the discussion. If I've learned anything from the forum, it's to try and get decent images and hope these are OK.

[Pete Collins]

Thanks rscott74, I remembered your thread from last year and have just gone through it again.

I'm still edging towards Giant Bellflower for flower 1.