2 blue flowers in overgrown plot - ID please

rscott74 · #1 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 03:51 PM

I recently noticed an overgrown and isolated plot of land next to a walkway that I regularly use. My attention was drawn by the large number of sunflowers growing there. The garden sized area is bounded by the former railway, now a walkway, 2 cultivated field and a stand of trees and bushes. The plot has no obvious access. I had to go further down the path, cross into one of the fields and double back towards the area.
My main interest was the sunflowers but I noticed and took pics of the two flowers shown below.
The first 2 show the flower head and stem/leaf of a fairly robust plant, the other two are of a slender plant showing the flower and an attempt to indicate leaf and structure.
I suspect that the site may once have been a garden and therefore the plants are ffrom ormer cultivation. I have no idea where the house may have been. Does anyone recognise the 2 plants please?

Paul mabbott · #2 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 03:58 PM

I recognise them both but can't recall what the first one is at the moment (

). The second one is flax - Linum not sure whether it's catharticum or not. Coincidentally, I'm just trying to identify what I think is a red flax .... watch this space!

rscott74 · #3 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 04:04 PM

Thanks Paul. Good luck with red flax.

rscott74 · #4 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 04:22 PM

Paul, I've done a bit of o/l research and think it's 'Linum usitatissimum' because of blue centre (stamen?) and clear dark blue viens in petals - ie, cultivated not perennial. Do you think I'm correct?

IanS · #5 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 04:29 PM

hi
The top one is phacelia tanacetifolia. Dont recognise the second though...
Ian

Paul mabbott · #6 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 04:54 PM

[Not L. catharticum which is white ... for sure

]
Yes, that seems quite likely but I'm no expert (as you can see). It is very commonly found either as crop residue or from birdseed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

Paul, I've done a bit of o/l research and think it's 'Linum usitatissimum' because of blue centre (stamen?) and clear dark blue viens in petals - ie, cultivated not perennial. Do you think I'm correct?

Paul mabbott · #7 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

Good luck with red flax.

Here it is! The foliage looks very much like the one in your pictures!

aeshna5 · #8 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 05:40 PM

Paul, yours is a Mediterranean flax, Linum grandiflorum var.rubrum. Not the same as the blue one which has smaller flower- as stated above it's L.usitatissimum, grown for linseed + also frequently as a casual from bird seed, etc.

Paul mabbott · #9 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 05:44 PM

Thanks.
No, I didn't think it was the same - was trying to say that the foliage was similar.... as it is in most flaxes, I suppose!

Quote:

Originally Posted by aeshna5

Paul, yours is a Mediterranean flax, Linum grandiflorum var.rubrum. Not the same as the blue one which has smaller flower- as stated above it's L.usitatissimum, grown for linseed + also frequently as a casual from bird seed, etc.

rscott74 · #10 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 09:12 PM

It's interesting that birdseed has been mentioned. The view below shows about half of the area where I found both plants and indicates the sighificant amount of sunflowers which first drew my attention. I found both plants in the area in the foreground. The track is behind me and there are farmed fields to left and right.
Sunflower seed is also a significant constituent of birdsedd - I wonder if there might be a connection? The problem is that the plot has no access and there's no habitation anywhere near so how would birdseed have got there?
I think I might make some enquiries with Durham Wildlife Trust who manage Rainton Meadows to which to walkway leads to see if the plot has a history - perhaps it was the haunt of a bird-loving recluse! A chap called Joe Nicholson leased part of what is now Rainton Meadows from the NCB in the 1950s to preserve wildlife and this is well known locally as Joe's Pond which was a nature reserve long before Rainton Meadows was established via JRB who extracted coal in the more recent past.
I'll let you know if I find out anything interesting

rscott74 · #11 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 09:40 PM

Just another question - does anyone know if the seed of phacelia tanacetifolia could be found in birdseed? I intend to e-mail Durham Wildlife Trust about the area where the various plant were found.

thunder · #12 (**permalink**) 17-09-2007, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

Just another question - does anyone know if the seed of phacelia tanacetifolia could be found in birdseed? I intend to e-mail Durham Wildlife Trust about the area where the various plant were found.

Not sure - but it's a common green manure and insect attracting plant

henrya

rscott74 · #13 (**permalink**) 18-09-2007, 08:09 AM

Looking on Google I find that it's a bee attractor and is grown for that purpose - it has a ijgh nectar content. That just fuels my interest in whethed the plot was used in the past as a wildlife friendly garden. I've contacted Durham Wildlife Trust to see if they have any info.

Paul mabbott · #14 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 01:44 PM

I would have thought, looking at the number and size of those sunflowers that there must have been some sown fairly recently - they look almost as if they've been drilled in and then abandoned?
You do get sunflowers seeding themselves around but very few of them grow to maturity ...
Intriguing - keep up the detective work!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

It's interesting that birdseed has been mentioned. The view below shows about half of the area where I found both plants and indicates the sighificant amount of sunflowers which first drew my attention. I found both plants in the area in the foreground. The track is behind me and there are farmed fields to left and right.
Sunflower seed is also a significant constituent of birdsedd - I wonder if there might be a connection? The problem is that the plot has no access and there's no habitation anywhere near so how would birdseed have got there?
I think I might make some enquiries with Durham Wildlife Trust who manage Rainton Meadows to which to walkway leads to see if the plot has a history - perhaps it was the haunt of a bird-loving recluse! A chap called Joe Nicholson leased part of what is now Rainton Meadows from the NCB in the 1950s to preserve wildlife and this is well known locally as Joe's Pond which was a nature reserve long before Rainton Meadows was established via JRB who extracted coal in the more recent past.
I'll let you know if I find out anything interesting

Gill Catton · #15 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

It's interesting that birdseed has been mentioned. The view below shows about half of the area where I found both plants and indicates the sighificant amount of sunflowers which first drew my attention. I found both plants in the area in the foreground. The track is behind me and there are farmed fields to left and right.
Sunflower seed is also a significant constituent of birdsedd - I wonder if there might be a connection? The problem is that the plot has no access and there's no habitation anywhere near so how would birdseed have got there?
I think I might make some enquiries with Durham Wildlife Trust who manage Rainton Meadows to which to walkway leads to see if the plot has a history - perhaps it was the haunt of a bird-loving recluse! A chap called Joe Nicholson leased part of what is now Rainton Meadows from the NCB in the 1950s to preserve wildlife and this is well known locally as Joe's Pond which was a nature reserve long before Rainton Meadows was established via JRB who extracted coal in the more recent past.
I'll let you know if I find out anything interesting

Looks like a 'game bird plot' to me where farmers plant up the side of a field in sunflowers or maize or both as cover and food for gamebirds has gone a bit wild though perhaps this was last years plot re-grown wheile the rest of the field has been left for set-aside?

Dan Salter · #16 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 04:30 PM

Im with Gill..not that i have a clue myself its just shes always right and i think shes great ! tee hee.

Interesting thread though...i love a bit of detective stuff and countryside history.

We occasionally got sunflowers croppin gup on darland banks but obviously houses fronted onto the banks so no mystery there.

Paul mabbott · #17 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 05:13 PM

So much for your analyses then - cherchez la femme!

Although, actually, I agree - follow Gill and you can't do too badly.

Yes, I hadn't thought about planting for gamebirds - would sunflowers contribute much to the diet of pheasant or whatever? Something I've not heard of - I would rather assume that small birds, squirrels and mice would get the seeds before they reached soil level? (Not a bad thing.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

Im with Gill..not that i have a clue myself its just shes always right and i think shes great ! tee hee.

Interesting thread though...i love a bit of detective stuff and countryside history.

We occasionally got sunflowers croppin gup on darland banks but obviously houses fronted onto the banks so no mystery there.

aeshna5 · #18 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 05:30 PM

About 3 years ago along the Central Line near Ealing there was a lot of clearance work + the following year many Sunflowers were blooming + they weren't deliberately planted. From the tube an interesting array of plants were apparent, but sadly no way of getting access. Quite a few Verbascums were obvious too.

rscott74 · #19 (**permalink**) 19-09-2007, 10:44 PM

Gill thanks for your thoughts. We are not a gamebird rearing area although there are a fair amount of pheasants and grouse around and the plot although inaccessible directly is close to a walk/bridleway leading to an area reclaimed from colliery/coal extraction use 10 or more years ago.The fields adjacent have been recently raked/harrowed. Durham Wildlife Trust have no information regarding the plot. Would would those factors and the presence of cultivated flax and fiddleneck fit your supposition and/or mine?

I'm trying to find who farms the fields as I assume he/she would have some useful information.

Gill Catton · #20 (**permalink**) 20-09-2007, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscott74

Gill thanks for your thoughts. We are not a gamebird rearing area although there are a fair amount of pheasants and grouse around and the plot although inaccessible directly is close to a walk/bridleway leading to an area reclaimed from colliery/coal extraction use 10 or more years ago.The fields adjacent have been recently raked/harrowed. Durham Wildlife Trust have no information regarding the plot. Would would those factors and the presence of cultivated flax and fiddleneck fit your supposition and/or mine?

I'm trying to find who farms the fields as I assume he/she would have some useful information.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying you're not a game bird rearing area...... This sort of farmland is very common, with it almost being run as a sideline alongside standard farming activities, I see it all over the country. The last time I saw a planted sunflower strip it was in Lincolnshire I think- it seems that maize is slightly more common. The presence of cultivated flax does indicate that this was / is a an actively farmed field.

almostnormal · #21 (**permalink**) 20-09-2007, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I'm not sure what you mean by saying you're not a game bird rearing area...... This sort of farmland is very common, with it almost being run as a sideline alongside standard farming activities, I see it all over the country. The last time I saw a planted sunflower strip it was in Lincolnshire I think- it seems that maize is slightly more common. The presence of cultivated flax does indicate that this was / is a an actively farmed field.

also, further to gill's point, under environmental stewardship schemes wild bird cover can be grown for more than just pheasants and partridges. it provides a valuable resource for the entire farmland bird suite and also many small woodland birds. its possible it was planted under a scheme. a lot of farmers go for a phacelia/sunflower type mix because its easy to establish and is cheaper than some other crops. fair play to them as well, as sunflowers particularly are great for greenfinch, goldfinch, buntings and partridge.

rscott74 · #22 (**permalink**) 20-09-2007, 10:23 PM

Thanks again for the interest. I hope that I can make contact with the farmer as s/he may well hold the key. I'll post any further info that I obtain.

Gill Catton · #23 (**permalink**) 21-09-2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almostnormal

also, further to gill's point, under environmental stewardship schemes wild bird cover can be grown for more than just pheasants and partridges. it provides a valuable resource for the entire farmland bird suite and also many small woodland birds. its possible it was planted under a scheme. a lot of farmers go for a phacelia/sunflower type mix because its easy to establish and is cheaper than some other crops. fair play to them as well, as sunflowers particularly are great for greenfinch, goldfinch, buntings and partridge.

you know that did occur to me, I reallyfeel I need to know more about field stewardship agreements etc......

Incidentally if you go look at magic interactive mapping you can see what parts of the country are covered by such schemes (though the details of each scheme are not available unfortunately)
MAGIC

Actually this is one of my fav websites brilliant for finding out what's in your area with regard to designated sites, nature reserves, ancient woodland etc.... You can also use it to measure areas or distances.....