Nettle-leaved Bellflower I presume

[rscott74]

These pics were taken on a walkway between Hetton and Pittington a few miles west of Durham City. From the bit of research I've done it seems that these are rare in the north-east. Could anyone confirm the ID and distribution?
It might be that the former railway track has been subject to sowing of seeds as I have noticed that there are a number of other flowers in the this locality which are not rare but I haven't noticed them around in great numbers elsewhere. Meadow Cranesbill being one that comes to mind. This is growing profusely. Both it and the bellflower are eyecatching.

[Jez]

Thats right those leaves look very stingy. 1 of my favourite woodland plants. They Grow here in Worcestershire- Midlands but aren't particually common i think there more abundant in the south east of England & ireland but rare in the North. Nice Find then!!

[aeshna5]

Yes I agree - an attractive plant.

[rscott74]

Thanks for responses jez & aeshna.
In my first post I made the point that it may have been 'artificiallly' introduced and I've contacted Durham Wildlife on that point. Do any contributors have comments on that issue. The plants are 'wild' like the lions of Longleat - or are they?

[Jez]

I can't see why they should be.

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by rscott74

These pics were taken on a walkway between Hetton and Pittington a few miles west of Durham City. From the bit of research I've done it seems that these are rare in the north-east. Could anyone confirm the ID and distribution?
It might be that the former railway track has been subject to sowing of seeds as I have noticed that there are a number of other flowers in the this locality which are not rare but I haven't noticed them around in great numbers elsewhere. Meadow Cranesbill being one that comes to mind. This is growing profusely. Both it and the bellflower are eyecatching.

Are you sure this is C.trachelium? It doesn't look quite right for that to me, too robust. Looks more like C.latifolia, Greater Bell-flower, esepcially given where you saw it.

[Jez]

The Sepal tube on giant bellflower differs from nettled leaved. Nettle leaved has a hairy sepal tube and the Giant is not. Though looking at the photo again the flowers do look rather large

[rscott74]

We seem to be having a bit of a difference or second thoughts. If jez is correct my first image definitely shows hairs on the sepals (I had to look up what exactly sepals were!). How can this be resolved? I have other images but I don't think they would add any detail not shown in the images provided. One does show my hand and I'd estimate the largest flower as 3cm long.

[Jez]

Another thing i notice from the top photo, is that it looks as the top flower is just coming through? which is true for Nettled leaved. Giant flower open from the base. Again i think this is to hairy to be giant. I have sown both in my woodland meadow creation. Unfortunately they won't flower until next summer and if they do they'll be those lions in long leat types even though they are Native Stock.

[Uncle_Filthster]

I'd be pretty certain it was an introduction up here as nettle leaved bellflower is not listed in Graham's Flora and Vegetation of County Durham (1988) yet it is shown as a recent record near Pittington on the BSBI site (Northumbria section) with the only other north east records as Darlington, Hartlepool and Alnwick.

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by rscott74

We seem to be having a bit of a difference or second thoughts. If jez is correct my first image definitely shows hairs on the sepals (I had to look up what exactly sepals were!). How can this be resolved? I have other images but I don't think they would add any detail not shown in the images provided. One does show my hand and I'd estimate the largest flower as 3cm long.

Interesting, my last comment was sent after spending a day in the Chilterns surrounded by Nettle-leaved none of which were so "blatant" as your plant but a closer look at your picture and Jez's comments when wide awake and I am now slightly confused.

Leaves - more like Nettle-leaved.

Calyx (sepals) - hairy, Nettle-leaved

Flowers - single? more like Greater
corolla lobes quite long, more like Greater

I must admit that the flowers worried me last night but now I think Jez is probably right but still not totally convinced so I'll go back to bed

Could Uncle_Filthster have the answer, it has been sown perhaps from a selected strain.

[Pete Collins]

It's a shame the photos don't show how the basal leaves join the stem, as that is a clear difference between Giant and Nettle-leaved. I'm a novice at wildflower identification, but the hairy sepals and the jagged leaf edges suggest to me that this is a Nettle-leaved bellflower.

If you've not seen it already, the differences between Giant and Nettle-leaved bellflowers were covered in a recent thread I started when I saw what turned out to be a Nettle-leaved bellflower (http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/fo...ellflower.html).

Originally Posted by ceterach

... after spending a day in the Chilterns surrounded by Nettle-leaved ...

ceterach,

just out of interest, whereabouts in the Chilterns was that? If it's not too far from me, I might take a look there myself.

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by Pete Collins

It's a shame the photos don't show how the basal leaves join the stem, as that is a clear difference between Giant and Nettle-leaved. I'm a novice at wildflower identification, but the hairy sepals and the jagged leaf edges suggest to me that this is a Nettle-leaved bellflower.

If you've not seen it already, the differences between Giant and Nettle-leaved bellflowers were covered in a recent thread I started when I saw what turned out to be a Nettle-leaved bellflower (http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/fo...ellflower.html).

Pete, I had forgottern that thread it was so long ago!! It illustrates my problem with the flowers here. They look more C.latifolia than C.trachelium but I agree I think (!) the C.trachelium has it by a hair or two.

Originally Posted by Pete Collins

ceterach,
just out of interest, whereabouts in the Chilterns was that? If it's not too far from me, I might take a look there myself.

We went to quite a few sites but especially the Warburg Reserve near Stonor which is quite special at the moment. Incidentally with reference to another earlier thread, the Clustered Bellflower (C.glomerata) was spectacular there with all sizes in huge numbers in the lower field.

[rscott74]

This is the best image of the whole plant. I don't have a close view of the base but perhaps by zooming in there might be some useful detail.
I must add that, as a complete amatuer and with little knowledge or experience, a post can produce valuable discussion and oppinion. Thanks to all the contributors.

[Pete Collins]

Looking at the basal leaves in the latest photo, I still think it is Nettle-leaved. In the top right of the photo is what looks very much like a basal leaf for another Nettle-leaved bellflower.

Originally Posted by ceterach

We went to quite a few sites but especially the Warburg Reserve near Stonor which is quite special at the moment. Incidentally with reference to another earlier thread, the Clustered Bellflower (C.glomerata) was spectacular there with all sizes in huge numbers in the lower field.

ceterach,

Thanks for that - Stonor is a bit far from me (I know where it is, I've been through it while walking the Chiltern Way) but I might pay it a visit sometime. I keep meaning to check out some BB&O wildlife trust sites on the internet. As for your comments about Clustered Bellflower, they were also in profusion at the Totternhoe Quarry, Beds., reserve on Saturday, and as you say in all sizes - certainly from 3 to 30cm in height as it says in one of my flower books.

[rscott74]

Just had a look at Peter's site - very good.
Checked the images of nettle- leaved and if the basal leaves are indicators they appear identical. I've sent an enquiry to council's countryside team to see if they know anything about its appearance around here. I don't think its due to mother nature unaided.

[rscott74]

I went back today to where I took the first images. Looking around I found 20+ plants. Some were seeding and others still had flowere. I've included some pics from today. The light was poor which meant that macro shots were difficult. It may be that these recent images illicit comments.

My submission to the Council gained the following response

Thank you for your recent enquiry.

I have consulted the flora and vegetation of County Durham and can find no record of Nettle Bellflower (Nettle-leaved Bellflower).

If you have managed to identify it as Nettle-leaved Bellflower, it is usually found in and among scrub and has probably been introduced to the region.

Best wishes

Countryside Officer

[aeshna5]

The leaves in the bottom photo show it to be Nettle-leaved, C. trachelium as the leaves are petiolate (stalked) as opposed to sessile (without stalk) as it Giant Bellflower, C.latifolia. Also the leaf base is cordate in photo as opposed to cuneate, which again supports C. trachelium.

Common in gardens, it may have escaped from one, rather than being a genuine native there- your local records centre can have that debate!

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

I thought this was nettle-leaved bellflower...am I wrong?

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by Scarlet Pimpernel

I thought this was nettle-leaved bellflower...am I wrong?

No I think you are absolutely correct. Comparison of yours with the Durham plant shows why I had misgivings about that one and I think I still do. It does not give the jizz of Nettle-leaved and the flowers are not quite as I know and your photo. I have no alternative suggestion (apart from ssp Durhamarana) but if it is an escaped plant/seedling then perhaps it is a selected form of C.trachelium.

[rscott74]

I see from latest images and some research that the plant prefers sunlight. The ones I found were in very shaded area (Auto flash was activated most ot the time) along side a former railway which has 20/30 years of shrub and tree growth. The path is only 2/3 m wide and the plants are from 2m to 4m beyond the gritted path in what I presume is fairly poor soil.
Aeshna seems to confirm ID but info above seems to suggest artificial introduction. It's a pity that no records are kept of this sort of activity.

[aeshna5]

Originally Posted by rscott74

I see from latest images and some research that the plant prefers sunlight. The ones I found were in very shaded area (Auto flash was activated most ot the time) along side a former railway which has 20/30 years of shrub and tree growth. The path is only 2/3 m wide and the plants are from 2m to 4m beyond the gritted path in what I presume is fairly poor soil.
Aeshna seems to confirm ID but info above seems to suggest artificial introduction. It's a pity that no records are kept of this sort of activity.

Botanists do tend to record all plants outside the garden fence- natives, established aliens (archeophytes/neophytes if I'm not allowed to say aliens!) + even casuals as these may become an integral part of our flora in the future, especially with more exotic travel, transportation + climate change. Good botanists send their records to their local recorder/records centre.

[rscott74]

Thanks for further response Aeshna. I am going report finding - is latin name C.trachelium?

[aeshna5]

Originally Posted by rscott74

Thanks for further response Aeshna. I am going report finding - is latin name C.trachelium?

It is indeed!