Orchids?

[Dogghound]

I am a total rookie with plants, know my animals, but just started to take more interest in plants.

Found two different looking plants together on the edge of a meadow in a slightly marshy area
1) are they the same species?
2)are they Orchids? i think they are, or are they something else can anyone ID these?






Cheers ..... ..... .....

[solus]

Yes, they are Orchids - both look like Common Spotted Orchids.

[almostnormal]

i'd second that - i've been looking at a lot of these recently, so common spotted orchid. nice pictures as well, mine aren't as good as that!

[Andy Warne]

I love orchids but they give me a headache! Might the first one be a hybrid with (presumably) Northern Marsh Orchid?

[Hornbeam]

I love orchids too, but they no longer give me a headache. I just enjoy them for their beauty and unpredictable appearances. All this botanic name changing and angst about what hybridises with what gives me the pip. Just one of the reasons I quit the WFS.

[Dogghound]

Cheers guys, so it wasnt an extremely rare Orchid lol

thankyou almostnormal, iv only been doing photography for about 4 months, getting a better camera soon too

[solus]

I would still say that both are Common Spotted. Trouble with Orchids is that there is a lot of variation within most species, without there necessarily being hybridisation. Some vary in size simply according to the habitat they find themselves in - such as the need to grow taller in longer grass than in short grass and there is a wide range of colours: I have seen Common Spotted, for example, in all shades from white through pinks to almost purple.

I don't know how frequently hybridisation is actually encountered in the field - but shouldn't we perhaps assume a plant is a variant within a pure species first, in the same way a bird is far more likely to be a common species than a rarity, and eliminate those first?

[Andy Warne]

Agreed. Deep pink flowers, size, unspotted leaves, etc. could all be just variation but what about the spur, it looks rather fat and tapered? On the second one the spur is thinner and straighter which is as Common Spotted should be.
Where's my headache tablets

[JennyS]

Would offer you some of my headache tablets, but the jar is nearly empty after the last few weeks of orchid peering.....
I love them for their beauty and the buzz of suddenly finding an unexpected one, but my problem is that to be able to use the photos I need to put some sort of a name to them......life was simpler before!

The first one does have a slightly different feel to it, if that makes any sense. But, as can be seen from other posts, i'm not too stunning on id's!

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by solus

I would still say that both are Common Spotted. Trouble with Orchids is that there is a lot of variation within most species, without there necessarily being hybridisation. Some vary in size simply according to the habitat they find themselves in - such as the need to grow taller in longer grass than in short grass and there is a wide range of colours: I have seen Common Spotted, for example, in all shades from white through pinks to almost purple.

I don't know how frequently hybridisation is actually encountered in the field - but shouldn't we perhaps assume a plant is a variant within a pure species first, in the same way a bird is far more likely to be a common species than a rarity, and eliminate those first?

Sensible words, Solus. One of the big problems with the marsh orchids is that each species shows a considerable range of variation and they readily form distinctive local populations. It is easy to assume that variants familiar to us represent "the species" and that something that looks different must be something else.

I agree the default position must indeed be to assume a given plant is a variant within a species until proved otherwise, and it is sometimes necessary to understand other factors that can cause puzzling variation (such as growth modifications caused by rusts and other plant pathogens). On many occasions I have been on meetings where people have been (in my view!) over-enthusiastic in claiming marsh orchid hybrids.

On the other hand, hybrids do happen among the marsh orchids, more readily between some species than others, and we are seeing in these forums how members, notably JennyS and Debs (dbozkurt) have an eye for the plant that is "not right". Inevitably, it is these oddities that are more likely to be posted here for others' opinions. And then, while it seems I am at odds with Hornbeam here, I think it is important to clarify our understanding of the species by recognising those individual plants that do fall outside the range of variation that the species should show.

In this instance I do think the first of Dogghound's photographs is a bit peculiar for Common Spotted Orchid. The colour certainly is not typical, but as Solus says, the colour in the Common Spotted does vary through to deep pink, even in var. fuchsii, and there are other named variaties, e.g. var. rhodochila, where the flower is indeed a rich purple.
On the other hand, the labellum shape looks odd, and is variable on the single plant, and the flower spike seems rather truncated.
I suspect that this plant does have mixed ancestry. The cross with Northern Marsh-orchid (Dactylorhiza purpurella) is common within the range of both parents (including North Yorkshire where I am guessing the photograph was taken), and it is highly fertile and able to cross back into populations of the parental species. So I think Dogghound's instinct is correct - the two plants are different. Photograph 2 is a very good representation of pure Common Spotted, but photograph 1 is showing a plant that is beyond the range of variation of the pure species. Probably not a first generation hybrid, but not a Common Spotted Orchid thoroughbred!

Alan