Orchids.....

[JennyS]

A couple of Orchid queries.....

I was delighted, and very surprised, to come across this Butterfly Orchid yesterday, the only one in a group of about 50 Heath-spotted, but now I'm wondering whether its Greater or Lesser?
Size made me think Greater (it would have been taller but the top of the flower spike has been munched off), habitat had me wondering Lesser......



And I found this one growing among Western Marsh-orchids (dact.majalis spp.occidentalis) but it looked different .....was wondering maybe Northern or Early Marsh-orchid?



Once again, thanks in anticipation - this forum is great!

[PeterJL]

Distinguishing between greater and lesser butterfly orchids is usually done by looking at the pollinia - the stalked bits which end in a yellow blob.

The pollinia in yours are slightly divergent so it's definitely maybe a Greater but possibly not perhaps.

On the other hand it might not be...

But it could really.

Dunno.

[almostnormal]

i'm not an absolute expert here, but i think the top one is greater butterfly orchid. the bottom one i'm less sure about because i can't see the spots on the leaves. it could be common spotted or heath spotted or one of the marsh orchids. the patterning on the flowers makes me think heath spotted, but not 100% sure. sorry. sarah

[AlanS]

I agree the first is Greater Butterfly Orchid.

The marsh orchid demonstrates the problem of dealing with single plants, particularly from photographs.

Are you sure it was really different from the other Irish Marsh Orchids (Dactylorhiza occidentalis)?
(N.B. It is now accepted from chromosome/DNA work that D. occidentalis is an independent species, endemic to Ireland, and has nothing to do with D. majalis, which does not occur in the British Isles.)

If it is not an aberrant D. occidentalis, then my only other suggestion is that it is a hybrid of that species with Heath-Spotted Orchid (D. maculata). The two species are said to hybridise with ease when they meet.

Alan

[JennyS]

Hi Alan, it was definitely different to the ones I identified as being D. occidentalis (thanks for clarification on name) and was the only one that I found.
I've not seen D. maculata at that location but earlier in the year found Green-winged Orchids (orchis morio) in exactly the same area.

Below is one identified as D.occidentalis, though now I'm a bit uncertain, most had un-spotted leaves.

[AlanS]

Hi again Jenny,

Looking at your first marsh orchid photograph again, I think it could well be the hybrid with D. maculata (the hybrid is called D. x dinglensis I see). Vegetatively it looks like it could have maculata in it.

Your one posted just above is weird, isn't it? I don't have any better suggestion than D. occidentalis with unspotted leaves.

Alan

[JennyS]

Hello again Alan,
Thanks for the help with the orchid ids, and I went back to Barley Cove today to see if I could make any more sense of them ....

The previous photos were taken three weeks ago when there was only one of the hybrids among about 40 of the Irish Marsh-orchids, this time there were very few Marsh orchids, most having gone to seed, and at least 20 of the hybrids. I also found a number of Spotted-orchids and in a different area two that seemed different again....

Below: Hybrid Marsh-orchid (D. x dinglensis), they all seemed reasonably similar to each other





Below: a couple more Irish Marsh-orchid (D. occidentalis), apparently many Irish marsh-orchids have unspotted leaves



Below: Heath-spotted Orchid (D. maculata) or hybrids, again many of the Irish Spotted Orchids seem to have un-spotted leaves just to confuse things!



Below: and two that seemed different again...the lower petals seemed much more tightly drawn back



Thank you again for your help, these are driving me batty!

[AlanS]

Hi again Jenny,

What an excellent and valuable set of photographs! It seems to me you have them very well sorted.

The bottom pair of photographs are certainly very interesting. The loose spike and the strongly reflexed side lobes to the lower lip strongly indicate D. incarnata, but only rarely does it have spotted leaves. There is a subsp. cruenta with purple flowers and spotted leaves, but it is known from very few populations and one view is that it is only in NW Scotland and not Ireland at all - Irish plants so named being spotted-leaved plants of subsp. pulchella. However, that view has been rejected by perhaps more reliable authorities.

Having said this, I think the notched and even ragged margins to the side-lobes rule out pure D. incarnata (and also the late time of flowering?). Indeed the marked variation between flowers on a single spike is probably an indication of hybridity (or at least it is so in another group of plants in which I have been sorting out the hybrids).

If D. incarnata is one parent, then the other must be one with (often) notched side lobes - which takes us back to D. occidentalis again. I don't know how frequent that hybrid is, but it is known to occur and I think it must be the best guess. (Assuming it is not just an aberrant plant of D. occidentalis of course!)

Alan

[JennyS]

Alan - thank you again!

D.incarnata spp. pulchella is recorded for H3, which covers Barley Cove, in the 1987 Census Catalogue of the Flora of Ireland, though the New Atlas CDrom doesn't show it there - (oh the frustration of not having accurate up-to date distribution details!) but I haven't yet found a mention of a hybrid with D.occidentalis.....will keep searching...

A couple of questions on hybrids have been bugging me:
If it is a named hybrid eg. D. x dinglensis does that mean it is fertile, and more stable in appearance?

The D.maculata x D.fushii that I find around here seem to be infinitely variable - do they require the presence of both parent species, or are the hybrids fertile?
But The New Atlas only shows a hybrid occuring in the North of Ireland....
The only named hybrid that I can find is D.transiens, and only shown for Co.Galway and Co.Clare (1987 CC of FI).....

And a final query
D.fushii spp.okelli is the white form, do you know if this is a fertile form, or just a named abberation?



Thank you for your time and help - you can sigh with relief and go back to Euphrasia sorting!

[thunder]

Quote
The D.maculata x D.fushii that I find around here seem to be infinitely variable - do they require the presence of both parent species, or are the hybrids fertile?
Endquote

The new BSBI book on hybrids will show that for a variety of species the presence of both parents is not necessary - I hope the book will attempt to explain why!

henrya

[PeterJL]

Jenny we found a similar orchid to yours on the Burren in 2005 but I understood that it was only found on the limestone of the Burren in Ireland.

Dactylorhiza incarnata ssp cruenta

[IanS]

Originally Posted by thunder

The new BSBI book on hybrids will show that for a variety of species the presence of both parents is not necessary - I hope the book will attempt to explain why!

henrya

hi Henrya
What is this book you have mentioned? Is it one on orchids or a more general one covering UK hybrids? When is it going to be published?

Jenny
Thanks for posting your orchid photos. You have some nice finds and photos there. I've been searching for Early Marsh around here but havent found any that Im particularly convinced about!
Ian

[AlanS]

A lot of questions here so I'll try a few quick answers.

The naming of hybrids is not affected by whether or not they are fertile or stable in their characters. Some people believe in giving hybrid names to every possible combination of parents, others tend to give names only when the hybrids are frequent or tend to persist independently of the parents. The agreed international rules do not cover this and it would be impossible to give clear-cut guidance.
The rules for naming hybrids are near enough the same as the rules for naming new species (description in Latin, for example) and this ensures stability when it is decided that a "species" is really a hybrid, or a plant previously thought to be a hybrid is a separate species. A high proportion of our species are derived from ancient hybrids anyhow.

D. fuchsii x maculata is said to be of low fertility and in my experience, the hybrid between these two species is not common. The parents do not often occur together and I suspect many reports of this hybrid are based on variants of one or other species.

Dactylorhiza fuchsii var. okellyi is a distinct plant, forming its own populations, and, so far as I know, is fully fertile. It is not just a colour form but a distinct race, in Ireland and (as a great rarity) West Scotland. White variants of D. fuchsii occur much more widely but are not okellyi.

The forthcoming BSBI Hybrid book is a new version of the one published in 1975. It is still being written/edited (and I am only posting to this forum as a break from completing my own contribution to it!). Cases of hybrids occurring outside the current ranges of their parents should be covered/explained in the individual accounts. (I hope.) It will cover all vascular plants (ferns, conifers, flowering plants) and will include substantially updated maps.

Alan

[PeterJL]

When is the expected publication date Alan?

[AlanS]

Originally Posted by PeterJL

When is the expected publication date Alan?

I don't know the latest projection - except that if I do not finish the Euphrasia account in the next few days, I fear the BSBI hit squad will be despatched and I will be fitted with concrete boots and thrown to the Giant Hogweed.

Alan

[thunder]

Originally Posted by IanS

hi Henrya
What is this book you have mentioned? Is it one on orchids or a more general one covering UK hybrids? When is it going to be published?

AlanS has answered this question. I might have a bit more information on publication date in a week or two! But with something that depends on lots of authors - all busy people like AlanS - there is bound to be some uncertainty in the final date!

henrya

[JennyS]

Hi - it would be a sad waste if they threw you in the hogweed Alan!

Thanks for all the info on hybrids - though I think now I'm more confused, but thats not difficult......so the picture I posted of the white D.fushii would be var.alba and not okelli - that simplifies that one.

Would anyone mind if I posted some mug-shots of some more orchids?
Most of whats round me is D.maculata, but in one small area I came across what I took to be D.fushii there as well.
Having read Alans post on them rarely occuring together I'm no longer so sure......

Peter - there are records for D.incarnata spp.cruenta in some other parts of Ireland as well. I think maybe part of the problem here is that there is much focus on a few well-known areas, and under recording in some of the rest.
And on that one, hi Thunder, did you have any luck tracking down an up-to date flora distribution for Ireland?

[thunder]

Quote
And on that one, hi Thunder, did you have any luck tracking down an up-to date flora distribution for Ireland?
Endquote

JennyS, I'll pm you about this.

henrya

[JennyS]

I went back to the only field round me where I've seen both Common Spotted-orchids (D.fushii) and Heath Spotted-orchid (D.maculata) and took some mugshots!
Though looking at them again I'm no longer so sure of the id's on all of them.....

I realised afterwards I should have got leaf shots too, but quite a lot had the leaf-tips munched off. Most of the leaves were un-spotted, though some did have some faint splots and blotches.
There were probably over a hundred in two patches in the same damp field, along with the leaf rosettes of Greater-flowered Butterwort and Bog Asphodel just coming onto flower.

Below: Common Spotted-orchids:



Below: Heath-spotted-orchids:



Below: Wasn't too sure which way to jump on these ones....