Orchids.....

[JennyS]

A couple of Orchid queries.....

I was delighted, and very surprised, to come across this Butterfly Orchid yesterday, the only one in a group of about 50 Heath-spotted, but now I'm wondering whether its Greater or Lesser?
Size made me think Greater (it would have been taller but the top of the flower spike has been munched off), habitat had me wondering Lesser......



And I found this one growing among Western Marsh-orchids (dact.majalis spp.occidentalis) but it looked different .....was wondering maybe Northern or Early Marsh-orchid?



Once again, thanks in anticipation - this forum is great!

[PeterJL]

Distinguishing between greater and lesser butterfly orchids is usually done by looking at the pollinia - the stalked bits which end in a yellow blob.

The pollinia in yours are slightly divergent so it's definitely maybe a Greater but possibly not perhaps.

On the other hand it might not be...

But it could really.

Dunno.

[almostnormal]

i'm not an absolute expert here, but i think the top one is greater butterfly orchid. the bottom one i'm less sure about because i can't see the spots on the leaves. it could be common spotted or heath spotted or one of the marsh orchids. the patterning on the flowers makes me think heath spotted, but not 100% sure. sorry. sarah

[AlanS]

I agree the first is Greater Butterfly Orchid.

The marsh orchid demonstrates the problem of dealing with single plants, particularly from photographs.

Are you sure it was really different from the other Irish Marsh Orchids (Dactylorhiza occidentalis)?
(N.B. It is now accepted from chromosome/DNA work that D. occidentalis is an independent species, endemic to Ireland, and has nothing to do with D. majalis, which does not occur in the British Isles.)

If it is not an aberrant D. occidentalis, then my only other suggestion is that it is a hybrid of that species with Heath-Spotted Orchid (D. maculata). The two species are said to hybridise with ease when they meet.

Alan

[JennyS]

Hi Alan, it was definitely different to the ones I identified as being D. occidentalis (thanks for clarification on name) and was the only one that I found.
I've not seen D. maculata at that location but earlier in the year found Green-winged Orchids (orchis morio) in exactly the same area.

Below is one identified as D.occidentalis, though now I'm a bit uncertain, most had un-spotted leaves.

[AlanS]

Hi again Jenny,

Looking at your first marsh orchid photograph again, I think it could well be the hybrid with D. maculata (the hybrid is called D. x dinglensis I see). Vegetatively it looks like it could have maculata in it.

Your one posted just above is weird, isn't it? I don't have any better suggestion than D. occidentalis with unspotted leaves.

Alan

[JennyS]

Hello again Alan,
Thanks for the help with the orchid ids, and I went back to Barley Cove today to see if I could make any more sense of them ....

The previous photos were taken three weeks ago when there was only one of the hybrids among about 40 of the Irish Marsh-orchids, this time there were very few Marsh orchids, most having gone to seed, and at least 20 of the hybrids. I also found a number of Spotted-orchids and in a different area two that seemed different again....

Below: Hybrid Marsh-orchid (D. x dinglensis), they all seemed reasonably similar to each other





Below: a couple more Irish Marsh-orchid (D. occidentalis), apparently many Irish marsh-orchids have unspotted leaves



Below: Heath-spotted Orchid (D. maculata) or hybrids, again many of the Irish Spotted Orchids seem to have un-spotted leaves just to confuse things!



Below: and two that seemed different again...the lower petals seemed much more tightly drawn back



Thank you again for your help, these are driving me batty!

[AlanS]

Hi again Jenny,

What an excellent and valuable set of photographs! It seems to me you have them very well sorted.

The bottom pair of photographs are certainly very interesting. The loose spike and the strongly reflexed side lobes to the lower lip strongly indicate D. incarnata, but only rarely does it have spotted leaves. There is a subsp. cruenta with purple flowers and spotted leaves, but it is known from very few populations and one view is that it is only in NW Scotland and not Ireland at all - Irish plants so named being spotted-leaved plants of subsp. pulchella. However, that view has been rejected by perhaps more reliable authorities.

Having said this, I think the notched and even ragged margins to the side-lobes rule out pure D. incarnata (and also the late time of flowering?). Indeed the marked variation between flowers on a single spike is probably an indication of hybridity (or at least it is so in another group of plants in which I have been sorting out the hybrids).

If D. incarnata is one parent, then the other must be one with (often) notched side lobes - which takes us back to D. occidentalis again. I don't know how frequent that hybrid is, but it is known to occur and I think it must be the best guess. (Assuming it is not just an aberrant plant of D. occidentalis of course!)

Alan

[JennyS]

Alan - thank you again!

D.incarnata spp. pulchella is recorded for H3, which covers Barley Cove, in the 1987 Census Catalogue of the Flora of Ireland, though the New Atlas CDrom doesn't show it there - (oh the frustration of not having accurate up-to date distribution details!) but I haven't yet found a mention of a hybrid with D.occidentalis.....will keep searching...

A couple of questions on hybrids have been bugging me:
If it is a named hybrid eg. D. x dinglensis does that mean it is fertile, and more stable in appearance?

The D.maculata x D.fushii that I find around here seem to be infinitely variable - do they require the presence of both parent species, or are the hybrids fertile?
But The New Atlas only shows a hybrid occuring in the North of Ireland....
The only named hybrid that I can find is D.transiens, and only shown for Co.Galway and Co.Clare (1987 CC of FI).....

And a final query
D.fushii spp.okelli is the white form, do you know if this is a fertile form, or just a named abberation?



Thank you for your time and help - you can sigh with relief and go back to Euphrasia sorting!

[thunder]

Quote
The D.maculata x D.fushii that I find around here seem to be infinitely variable - do they require the presence of both parent species, or are the hybrids fertile?
Endquote

The new BSBI book on hybrids will show that for a variety of species the presence of both parents is not necessary - I hope the book will attempt to explain why!

henrya

[PeterJL]

Jenny we found a similar orchid to yours on the Burren in 2005 but I understood that it was only found on the limestone of the Burren in Ireland.

Dactylorhiza incarnata ssp cruenta

[IanS]

Originally Posted by thunder

The new BSBI book on hybrids will show that for a variety of species the presence of both parents is not necessary - I hope the book will attempt to explain why!

henrya

hi Henrya
What is this book you have mentioned? Is it one on orchids or a more general one covering UK hybrids? When is it going to be published?

Jenny
Thanks for posting your orchid photos. You have some nice finds and photos there. I've been searching for Early Marsh around here but havent found any that Im particularly convinced about!
Ian