Orchids.....

PeterJL · #11 (**permalink**) 24-06-2007, 09:55 PM

Jenny we found a similar orchid to yours on the Burren in 2005 but I understood that it was only found on the limestone of the Burren in Ireland.

Dactylorhiza incarnata ssp cruenta

IanS · #12 (**permalink**) 24-06-2007, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thunder

The new BSBI book on hybrids will show that for a variety of species the presence of both parents is not necessary - I hope the book will attempt to explain why!

henrya

hi Henrya
What is this book you have mentioned? Is it one on orchids or a more general one covering UK hybrids? When is it going to be published?

Jenny
Thanks for posting your orchid photos. You have some nice finds and photos there. I've been searching for Early Marsh around here but havent found any that Im particularly convinced about!
Ian

AlanS · #13 (**permalink**) 25-06-2007, 10:10 PM

A lot of questions here so I'll try a few quick answers.

The naming of hybrids is not affected by whether or not they are fertile or stable in their characters. Some people believe in giving hybrid names to every possible combination of parents, others tend to give names only when the hybrids are frequent or tend to persist independently of the parents. The agreed international rules do not cover this and it would be impossible to give clear-cut guidance.
The rules for naming hybrids are near enough the same as the rules for naming new species (description in Latin, for example) and this ensures stability when it is decided that a "species" is really a hybrid, or a plant previously thought to be a hybrid is a separate species. A high proportion of our species are derived from ancient hybrids anyhow.

D. fuchsii x maculata is said to be of low fertility and in my experience, the hybrid between these two species is not common. The parents do not often occur together and I suspect many reports of this hybrid are based on variants of one or other species.

Dactylorhiza fuchsii var. okellyi is a distinct plant, forming its own populations, and, so far as I know, is fully fertile. It is not just a colour form but a distinct race, in Ireland and (as a great rarity) West Scotland. White variants of D. fuchsii occur much more widely but are not okellyi.

The forthcoming BSBI Hybrid book is a new version of the one published in 1975. It is still being written/edited (and I am only posting to this forum as a break from completing my own contribution to it!). Cases of hybrids occurring outside the current ranges of their parents should be covered/explained in the individual accounts. (I hope.) It will cover all vascular plants (ferns, conifers, flowering plants) and will include substantially updated maps.

Alan

PeterJL · #14 (**permalink**) 25-06-2007, 10:20 PM

When is the expected publication date Alan?

AlanS · #15 (**permalink**) 25-06-2007, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PeterJL

When is the expected publication date Alan?

I don't know the latest projection - except that if I do not finish the Euphrasia account in the next few days, I fear the BSBI hit squad will be despatched and I will be fitted with concrete boots and thrown to the Giant Hogweed.

Alan

thunder · #16 (**permalink**) 26-06-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanS

hi Henrya
What is this book you have mentioned? Is it one on orchids or a more general one covering UK hybrids? When is it going to be published?

AlanS has answered this question. I might have a bit more information on publication date in a week or two! But with something that depends on lots of authors - all busy people like AlanS - there is bound to be some uncertainty in the final date!

henrya

JennyS · #17 (**permalink**) 26-06-2007, 01:12 AM

Hi - it would be a sad waste if they threw you in the hogweed Alan!

Thanks for all the info on hybrids - though I think now I'm more confused, but thats not difficult......so the picture I posted of the white D.fushii would be var.alba and not okelli - that simplifies that one.

Would anyone mind if I posted some mug-shots of some more orchids?
Most of whats round me is D.maculata, but in one small area I came across what I took to be D.fushii there as well.
Having read Alans post on them rarely occuring together I'm no longer so sure......

Peter - there are records for D.incarnata spp.cruenta in some other parts of Ireland as well. I think maybe part of the problem here is that there is much focus on a few well-known areas, and under recording in some of the rest.
And on that one, hi Thunder, did you have any luck tracking down an up-to date flora distribution for Ireland?

thunder · #18 (**permalink**) 26-06-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote
And on that one, hi Thunder, did you have any luck tracking down an up-to date flora distribution for Ireland?
Endquote

JennyS, I'll pm you about this.

henrya

JennyS · #19 (**permalink**) 26-06-2007, 09:55 PM

I went back to the only field round me where I've seen both Common Spotted-orchids (D.fushii) and Heath Spotted-orchid (D.maculata) and took some mugshots!
Though looking at them again I'm no longer so sure of the id's on all of them.....

I realised afterwards I should have got leaf shots too, but quite a lot had the leaf-tips munched off. Most of the leaves were un-spotted, though some did have some faint splots and blotches.
There were probably over a hundred in two patches in the same damp field, along with the leaf rosettes of Greater-flowered Butterwort and Bog Asphodel just coming onto flower.

Below: Common Spotted-orchids:

Below: Heath-spotted-orchids:

Below: Wasn't too sure which way to jump on these ones....