Neds/Chavs

[WhippingBoy]

I'm a Park Ranger in Edinburgh (well the outskirts) and one of the perennial problems is mindless vandalism and general destruction of green spaces.

Is there a solution? Do we just have to put up with it? Will things ever improve? Or there a case for culling to manage population density?

Ant thoughts?

[C C]

We had major problems on one of our LNRs, teenagers "getting bored" as they do say, no excuse however. One day i caught the offenders, and invited them along to a bench making competiton, that was being held on the site. Of course they won , and the event gave them an insight in to the importance of our work on the area. Two of them are now volunteers and help to look after the area. Though! the area still gets vandalized from time to time , but not as much.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by C C

We had major problems on one of our LNRs, teenagers "getting bored" as they do say, no excuse however. One day i caught the offenders, and invited them along to a bench making competiton, that was being held on the site. Of course they won , and the event gave them an insight in to the importance of our work on the area. Two of them are now volunteers and help to look after the area. Though! the area still gets vandalized from time to time , but not as much.

keep your friends close keep your enemies closer...........

seriously though it's ace when you can provide the inspiration and make it stick.....

[James_Owen]

As woolly as it sounds, I'm definitely in the 'reach out to them' camp too.
At our LNR the Friends group is made-up mostly of senior citizens, retired couples, etc, and frankly they tend to be a little too fearful of the youths who hang out around the visitor centre. Yes, this is a rough area of Nottinghamshire and the park neighbours a council estate they might have based Shameless upon, but most kids aren't that bad. Let's face it, standing outside in the cold and the rain on a winter day probably isn't their first choice in leisure. They really do feel they have nothing else to do.

Anyway, as a solution to the perceived problem the Friends group and council chose one of those youth detterent alarms that supposedly only teenagers can hear. Personally I hate the thing, we shouldn't discourage young people from visiting any LNR.

The rangers on the other hand do invite them on working days, on my last visit they had the youths cleaning up the car park, and during fundraising events they will help us pack up the stalls at the end of the day. Okay, they do scribble on benches every so often, or mess around with the doors, but there is definite potential for inclusion with the running of the park.
Nonetheless, the prejudices of the aged Friends group persists, and there is a current stand-off between them, the council and the rangers about how to handle the youth problem.

So there are good ways and bad ways to deal with it, I think you just have to not necessarily see kids as the enemy.

[Kayleigh]

We have a large set aside field near us where people exercise their dogs. There are broken spirit bottles all over it. Beer cans and rubbish. In the summer the youngsters go there and it looks like they get drunk and have partys..They also set fireworks off there in November. The shops seem to sell to under age youngsters as the name of the shop was on the carrier bags that were strung all over the field.

[speckled wood]

For anyone who wishes to observe or photograph Chavs and Chavettes in the wild, my home town of Crewe is reputed (by the Sun "newspaper" no less) to be the UK;s Chav Capital. Chavs and Chavettes wcan be seen most nights displaying and pairing on the Delamere House Car Park adjacent to the town centre McDonalds. This is now one of the few places where the Vauxhall Nova can also be seen hunting its prey.

SW

[overgrownbramble]

Here in Vicky Pollard country, we have a persistant problem of bored kids not only breaking trees apart branch after branch and bark stripping, but also continuously setting fires to wildlife areas. The devastation caused is heartrending, and of course the fire engines can't get to the areas to put the fires out. Broken glass is and litter abounds. I son't see what can be done apart from exculde all people from nature areas, but no doubt the destroyers would still get in. Until we find out what pleasure people take in destroying public forests that will take decades to regrow, we're fighting a losing battle.

There is a purpose built skate park with ramps and all the rest, but I've yet to see any one use it! They much prefer to tear up the wildlife areas with their trailbikes (which is not legal in this area) - however, the parents and grandparents carry the bikes to the park in their vans and 4x4s!! SO it's not just the kids, the older ones really should know better. I don't think it's any good blaming teenagers when 50-60 year olds don't even have any respect, it's attitude not age.

[Garden Carpet]

Yes it is attitude, but age does have a bearing on it too. When my son was living at home he and his mates used to spend many evenings in his room.. or watching videos with me. I would far rather have a room full of young lads and all the noise and smells!!!! knowing where my son was and who he was with than have him out on the streets. I know my son wouldnt have been making trouble but kids are easily led.. it only takes one to start and the others will soon follow. I used to have them come round and have makeshift barbies .. they would all go off and get food.... oooh dear.. am reminiscing.... I have heard that is a symptom of old age. Unfortunately I had to stop these evenings till we moved.. as the lady in the flat upstairs objected to their laughter!!!! She was a retired teacher too!!!

The point is that more parents should make places available for their young to hang out... of course they want to be with their mates... part of being young.. and we can hardly blame them for being bored if all we teach them is to get out of the house and stop making a noise!! .. Sorry.. now I am ranting

Encouraging them to take part in activities on the reserve or park is the best way to get em ... off the streets.. and interested in nature... double whammy
jaki

[nightshade]

It is very basic no discipline at home,most children and young people
just do not know where they fit in no one speaks to them just AT them
Childrens tv is dumbed down and seems preoccupied with farting and
denigrating grown-ups.They have few genuine heroes, all in all a poor life
compared to my own where I had nothing except dreams

[Oy]

I think Land Rovers with machine guns mounted on the back are a viable option that should be seriously considered.

[WhippingBoy]

Definately two camps here. I'm totally split myself.

On the one hand, reach out to the disaffected, one soul saved makes it all worth while. But on the other hand, why should the worst behaviour be rewarded with all the fun - I would have have given my right arm to do practical conservation at that age, but instead was 'guided' along the academic route.

I plan on trying the practical involvement method. Forest Schools have come very highly recommended.

Failing that, a spot of ned hunting anyone? We could tempt them into a cage using 'boatils ae buckie' (Buckfast Tonic Wine - a local delicacy) lock the gates and goad them with pictures of Marilyn Manson....

[overgrownbramble]

I'm for that.... round up all the chavvies with no respect (no age barriers)... easily done, just put up several "keep out, ground nesting birds" or some such signs, we'll have them in one compound in no time!

[Boddie]

Originally Posted by C C

We had major problems on one of our LNRs, teenagers "getting bored" as they do say, no excuse however. One day i caught the offenders, and invited them along to a bench making competiton, that was being held on the site. Of course they won , and the event gave them an insight in to the importance of our work on the area. Two of them are now volunteers and help to look after the area. Though! the area still gets vandalized from time to time , but not as much.

I think that shows great initiative. Alot of these kids just lack attention and you bestowed some trust on them. Nobody gives kids a sense of pride any more, and you did just that. I think you were spot on

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by overgrownbramble

I don't think it's any good blaming teenagers when 50-60 year olds don't even have any respect, it's attitude not age.

This is very close to the truth, it is surprising just how many 50 - 60 year old yobs and vandals there are. A lot of the time its not just blame the parents but blame the grandparents as well, four years as a school governor taught me a lot about the attitudes of some grandparents.

SW

[badgerwatcher]

Having recently moved from the middle of the town to the outskirts, we are struck by the difference in atmosphere. Exactly the same people, we haven't moved to the 'posh' end!
All we hear of children, and teenagers included, is the sound of laughter and play. Yes they've got their motor bikes and old cars, and roar around in them, or play 'taking them to bits and putting them back together again,' and yes, they are still the same kids.
But they are not, as in the town centre, throwing eggs at cars, firing airguns at your windows, breaking lumps off trees, setting fire to rubbish bins and park shelters, sitting around drunk in church yards, dealing drugs in corners of the park, throwing frogs under cars.

What are the differences? Here, they have a large recreation ground given over completely to the youngsters in terms of design. It has several well maintained football pitches, several fenced off hard courts with netball/basketball type nets, a couple which they ride their bikes in including the car park, a pavillion, and at the back, a very steep hill.
Every Saturday and Sunday, all day you can hear the happy yelling from organised football games, including some adult ones, all the children, (and without being class-ist, I mean all) head off there after school and at weekends, play games of one sort or another, the worse being jumping from the top of one recycling bin to the next, but not harming anyone, and the more adventurous climb the hill, shrieking and laughing, rolling down it, dragging each other up it, building themselves camps, generally getting themselves nicely exhausted in cheerful play.
People walk their dogs there, but clean up after them. The whole area is very open, so parents can keep an eye on children from anywhere in the rec.
What a difference a bit of space makes! If only town planners had the foresight to build more of these vital areas into their designs.

[Gill Catton]

i'm not sure it all can be based on the environment a child is brought up in, I think it's probably how they are brought up and how their peers have been brought up.

It still amazes me that you have to train and obtain a licence to be able to drive a car or even to disturb barn owls at the nest, yet you can have as many children as you like with no training at all - above how your parents raised you.
If your parents ignored you and your siblings - treated you like you were a pain in the backside and didn't give you boundaries, encouragement, time or attention what chance have you got raising your own kids?

It takes a very special kind of person who can step up and reach out to these kids and actually get through, I can only stand back and applaud and hope that one day I might be able to pass on a little inspiration, fix a little bit of the problem myself.....

[Wild-Woman]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

It still amazes me that you have to train and obtain a licence to be able to drive a car or even to disturb barn owls at the nest, yet you can have as many children as you like with no training at all - above how your parents raised you.

A lot of schools offer 'parenting skills' classes but the parents that show up are usually the ones that are relatively good at it, it's the ones who could do with a bit of guidance, that don't. You can't win.

[C C]

I have volunteered my services for many a year with Forest Schools, i love it. And on many a day i have had been warned about certain children, by Teachers or their Parents " Watch this one mind, good kid can be dissruptive,wasn't going to bring him/her today misbehaves in school/home". I love these "type", for some reason they shine on the day, totaly hands on , not affraid to ask questions, they get stuck in. But then it does seem that we are rewarding bad behaviour. But i never see a bad kid, (though sometimes a bad parent), probably because i havn't grown up myself, well thats what my wife recons..

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by C C

I have volunteered my services for many a year with Forest Schools, i love it. And on many a day i have had been warned about certain children, by Teachers or their Parents " Watch this one mind, good kid can be dissruptive,wasn't going to bring him/her today misbehaves in school/home". I love these "type", for some reason they shine on the day, totaly hands on , not affraid to ask questions, they get stuck in. But then it does seem that we are rewarding bad behaviour. But i never see a bad kid, (though sometimes a bad parent), probably because i havn't grown up myself, well thats what my wife recons..

Yes I sort of know what you mean, I stumbed across a couple of lads in woodland behind Dudley zoo having a fight with pieces of japanese knotweed and once they got talking to me and realised what I was doing they followed me around fascinated and full of questions. I was so sad to leave them knowing it was unlikely that there would be anyone to follow me to encourage their natral enthusiasm. Another time I was working in the summer along a length of canal and stopped for a while on some moorings to dunk my hot welly bound feet into the water to cool them down. A troop of school children walked past most of which were walking hand in hand in twos but a bunch of boys were at the back Not hand in hand and being a bit naughty - it was these boys who stopped - again full of questions, -they were ace!!!

Though I can imagine dealing with them day after day in a classroom environment when they're bored and you've got 25 other kids to deals with too that they're not so much fun.....

[James_Owen]

Originally Posted by overgrownbramble

I don't think it's any good blaming teenagers when 50-60 year olds don't even have any respect, it's attitude not age.

Quite true.
At our LNR we have a problem with fishing, which is prohibited - about the only decently sized area of water in the district that isn't open for fishing interests (and by the way in our experience NOBODY but NOBODY litters like fisherman do). Now you might expect teenagers to take no notice of the restrictions, what's galling is when adults - generally of retirement age - join and encourage them. We even had one briefly join the Friends group, and he could still be found ignoring the very obvious signs telling him not to fish. As you can imagine he was very swiftly asked to leave the group! He's still fishes quite often, shamelessly on the open banks with parasol, deck chairs and wife reading a book beside him, as people tut when they walk by. Militant fisherman, I suppose you might call guys like that.

[badgerwatcher]

I've found the real 'don't go near that one's are usually starved of attention, and can be won round by individual help. Unfortunately, they are very hungry for this, having missed out somewhere along the line, and sadly you know that they will always need it, or be disruptive. But it is lovely to reach those children.
I always give the most fragile string puppet or precious prop to the child that isn't ever allowed near anything! The teachers all cringe, but because I'm a stranger, and they feel honoured, they usually behave perfectly. Not always, but then, it was only a puppet!