Naming Unidentified Images

[Pudding4brains]

Hi,

Okay, I give up. When I first came here a few days ago, basically looking for images of rare woodlice (or those not present in NL) I figured it would be nice to "give back" a little and answer some open questions in the forum and ID some of the "Unknown" critters in the galleries.

Especially with the latter there is really no point me thinks now. Not only is browsing the huge amount of images in "Unknown insects" to click the thumbs you think might represent something you might know a fairly daunting task, but lots of time you will find that the image already has been identified correctly either in the comments or even in the image title. So what is it still doing in the "Unknown" section?

But what really makes one feel rather silly is that, in retrospect, many (most?) of the images in "Unknown" that still seemed to be unidentified in the gallery and that I added comments to, in fact have been identified in the forum long ago. This is rather hard to find out though, as there are no links from the images to the forum posts where they have been used/linked.

It's probably me just being stupid again, trying to do something useful where it isn't called for but maybe it should be made clear to newbies somewhere that the "Unknown" is not an invitation to do something about that, but rather just a random title for an "unsorted" or "all sort" container that is not supposed to be sorted out ...

Oh well, good night
Arp

[GerryNick2]

I know how you feel and your not alone, I and others had the same problem with the unknown fungi gallery. You spend hours browsing through the images put an ID to an image only to find it has already been positively ID'd in a forum. Frustrating to say the least.

Not sure what the answer is but a re-think is certainly called for. Perhaps the answer would be for posters to place images seeking ID through forums in the forum gallery in the first instance and transfer to the unknown when all else fails.

Gerry

[cybershot]

Once my images are positively identified, either in forum or via comment in gallery, frequently they are re-named and transferred to the correct gallery. However since the gallery upgrade it is apparent that, from discussions with others around the site, that this process is somewhat of an imprecise science. There is confusion of how to go about it: Should it be via the 'report image' icon/button (as per pre- update) or by means of a PM to a mod/editor? There have been a lot of scattered comments on this and finding a definitive instruction isn't easy. Perhaps it should be the subject of a "How to....." sticky thread somewhere!

David

[StuartDH]

It's something that we've wanted to make better for a long time, but don't really know the answer at the moment. It's not easy trying to get all the members to go back to their original images and add the ID, as well as report the thread to get it renamed.

I've just changed a setting in the archive (not the gallery) so that all members can edit the image titles and move them to the forum category once an ID has been found - to do it just click on the icon under the image

Hopefully it'll help a bit, but it's one those things that'll maybe never be right. We post lots of info and instructions on the site (maybe too much) and yet we still get lots of uploads in the wrong place, incorrect titles etc.

As an example, and at the risk of sounding like I having a dig, the original title of this thread "Feeling rather stupid" doesn't really describe the topic and doesn't make it easy for people to find again or make it easy for search engines to list correctly, so I've changed it to "Naming Unidentified Images". Ideally, we'd like all members to only use short and relevant titles, and we've tried adding banners, animated graphics, instructions when they join etc to explain this, but they still don't do it.

I hope we can get all of these things sorted eventually as it would certainly make the life of moderators and editors a lot easier and ultimately result in a better site. All we need is another 20 pairs of hands

Stu

[Bub-les]

Thanks for the info I've updated a couple of my photos that have been IDed I didn't know how to do it before so thanks again.

[pressld2]

I'll hold my hand up as guilty of this. I have quite a few "unidentified" fungi in my archive section which have been identified with a reasonable degree of confidence in the forum, but I have never got around to reporting them to a mod. I shall make use of the edit facility to sort mine out asap - thanks for adding it Stu.

Dave P.

[GerryNick2]

Hi Stu

Just had a look at the the new icon in the archive, should help with renaming. What seems to be now needed is the facility to move the image to the appropriate gallery once it has had the title changed. Not sure I understand why I would want to move an image to the forum gallery once an ID had been found.

To give an example the following image of my own was identified in the fungi forum some months ago, the title was changed by a moderator, but it is still stuck in the unidentified archive despite attempts to get it transfered to the Fungi Gallery.



Could the 'Change Category' drop down box not include the full list of galleries i.e in this instance Fungi Gallery and then subjected to moderator approval in the usual manner before the transfer takes effect.

Gerry

[GerryNick2]

Hi again Stu

Another after thought whilst we are on the subject.

I currently have 34 images in the Unidentified Fungi Archive going back to September 2006 and with the exception of the earlier mentioned image they serve no useful purpose and I would love to be able to delete them.

At the back of my mind I can recall some debate on the subject of editing and removing images but cannot remember the outcome.

Surely it would now be possible to include a delete option with the new icon, with the appropriate safegaurds restricting useage to the original poster. I would of course expect the facility to be restricted to the archive gallery only for obvious reasons.

Gerry

[Mercadante]

Sorry to be dense, but I went to add the identification for one of my pics, [url=http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/archive/showphoto.php?photo=53024], and I cannot see this icon anywhere. Where exactly is it?

Also, I only know that this is a Peltigera, can't be certain of the exact species - should I move it to the forums or leave it in unidentified?

[StuartDH]

ID'ed images should ideally be moved out of the unidentified sections so that they don't clutter up the unidentified categories and force members to have to go through lots of ID'ed pics

The 'change category' menu can't include the full list as the gallery and archive are completely separate software installations, different database etc. If images are IDed and good enough to go in the main gallery then they'll need to be uploaded to the gallery.

Unfrotunately, there are lots of problems with deleting images, but in this case it's basically that it also breaks the images from being viewed in the forum threads where they've been posted, and so we'd have to also delete them too. Lots of work and not very good for everyone who has taken time to post replies, also Google doesn't like lots of deleted pages.

Stu

[GerryNick2]

Well Stu I have done my bit and transfered 30+ plus images to the forum gallery leaving just 4 in the unidentified fungi, two of which I will persevere in trying to get moved to the fungi gallery. Still leaves 1673 images in the unidentified gallery so need a lot of people to do the same to make an impact.

I would like to test my understanding on getting images transfered from the archive to the main gallery. If I understood you correctly the archive and the main gallery are contained in separate software programs, consequently it is not possible to transfer images from one to the other. Therefore if I want to transfer an image from the unidentified gallery to the main fungi gallery I will need to upload it again from my PC directly to the main gallery and then put the original image in the forum gallery.

Gerry

[glsammy]

Originally Posted by GerryNick2

Well Stu I have done my bit and transfered 30+ plus images to the forum gallery leaving just 4 in the unidentified fungi, two of which I will persevere in trying to get moved to the fungi gallery. Still leaves 1673 images in the unidentified gallery so need a lot of people to do the same to make an impact.

I would like to test my understanding on getting images transfered from the archive to the main gallery. If I understood you correctly the archive and the main gallery are contained in separate software programs, consequently it is not possible to transfer images from one to the other. Therefore if I want to transfer an image from the unidentified gallery to the main fungi gallery I will need to upload it again from my PC directly to the main gallery and then put the original image in the forum gallery.

Gerry

That sounds about right Gerry. The only way is to upload them again. They also need to remain in the older archives to retain any links in forum threads, so to transfer then to the Forum Gallery is the only feasible way of reducing the unidentified list.

[matt_xyz]

here's my view of how this should work (and how I thought it was working, to be honest):

Unidentified images should be identified via threads in the appropriate forum. So, the images should be uploaded to the Archive (preferably the Unidentified Gallery) and a thread should be started asking for help to identify it. I agree that there is little point sifting through images in the Unidentified Gallery trying to ID them, instead users should sift through threads in the appropriate forum and offer IDs where they are still needed.

Once an image has been identified it is not currently possible for us to transfer it to the main gallery. Instead, members should simply upload it again, to the main gallery, and include the full common name and scientific name.

The downside of this is that there will be duplicate images remaining in the Unidentified Gallery. But Stu previously indicated that these shouldn't cause too many problems given the size of the server. They are also still required in order for the original thread to keep its images.

Matt

[Pudding4brains]

Wow, what a response ...

First of all, thanks to Stu for adding the new option, think it's a good step.

Originally Posted by StuartDH

the original title of this thread "Feeling rather stupid" doesn't really describe the topic

Well, as far as I'm concerned that certainly was the topic, as I figured I'd gotten it all wrong once more and had been trying to do things that were not called for

Having read the above responses a few things spring to mind:

• Not all positively identified images are "Gallery"-quality to begin with, so maybe identified images, even if only identified as "Somefamilyororder spec." because it's simply not possible to go beyond that based on the image, should be moved to a different category in the archive first rather that applying for "Gallery status" directly.
• As the placement in the "Archive" categories would be less critical, maybe it's a good idea to allow (some/most/all) users to move images around even if these are not their own. Possibly even allowing renaming, or having a seperate "subtitle" or "keywords" field that can be accessed by all.
• There is a difference between "Unknown" and "Unidentifiable", maybe this should be reflected in the category organization. Above, I read something about deleting "Unidentifiable" fungi images. To me that seems a shame as it would not only render old forum discussions useless, but there is always the off-chance that someone more knowledgeable may come along one day and even if not/never these images still do provide an insight of biodiversity even if they have no name other than "Fungus - unidentifiable" attached.
• Also, having a category "Unidentifiable" (maybe as subcats to Orders or Families or so) is much more of an invitation to real experts to give it a shot. The "Unknown" can still be a nice playground for nincompoops like me to see if they can bumb the ID up/down a taxonomic step.
• Once you have decided on a system, editing/moving rights, new/different categories etc etc, it may be a good idea to have a sticky in each forum crying out "Please move identified images" or so. Maybe point out that it's probably just a matter of "being civilized" to put in a little effort to update things if you ask/expect other people to put in an effort and help you with the ID (they put in the effort to help - you put in the effort to do something with the results). Also, as a campaign, ask regulars to add a notice to this effect to their sigs and make sure this has a link in it to a FAQ-page where the actions required are explained (and of course make it so that the actions required are simple and fast).

Stu, try to make as much use as possible of the human resources you have here!

Cheers,
Arp

[Pudding4brains]

Okay, one more ...

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

The downside of this is that there will be duplicate images remaining in the Unidentified Gallery.

Okay - that's what I had figured out last night and so I was "feeling Stupid" for even trying to shift through the unidentified.

However, and this is where I might very well need some readjustment of thought patterns:

• Isn't the archive supposed to be a place for all images that are not "Gallery quality"? Even if identified.
• If the archive is supposed to be a "dumb" container, then why have categories at all? Might as well dump it all in one big heap then.

Confused
Arp

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

Okay, one more ...
Okay - that's what I had figured out last night and so I was "feeling Stupid" for even trying to shift through the unidentified.

However, and this is where I might very well need some readjustment of thought patterns:

• Isn't the archive supposed to be a place for all images that are not "Gallery quality"? Even if identified.
• If the archive is supposed to be a "dumb" container, then why have categories at all? Might as well dump it all in one big heap then.

Confused
Arp

The Archive is not intended to be a refuge for images that are not gallery quality. It is a location for general images to be included in threads (the Forum Gallery) and unidentifed images to be included in threads (Unidentified Gallery). As I say, it is not intended to be a second rate version of the main gallery.

In terms of your other points, the current system (laid out in my post above) does work fine. Crucially, it works in a way which doesn't put a huge burden on the mods. Any system which requires the mods to move images becomes too much of a burden as we get dozens every day at certain times of the year.

The gallery editors will decide whether any image uploaded to the main gallery is of sufficient quality so that aspects works fine too.

The only thing we may need is to provide slightly clearer instructions about how the Unidentified system works.

Matt

[StuartDH]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

Wow, what a response ...

First of all, thanks to Stu for adding the new option, think it's a good step.
Well, as far as I'm concerned that certainly was the topic, as I figured I'd gotten it all wrong once more and had been trying to do things that were not called for

Having read the above responses a few things spring to mind:

• Not all positively identified images are "Gallery"-quality to begin with, so maybe identified images, even if only identified as "Somefamilyororder spec." because it's simply not possible to go beyond that based on the image, should be moved to a different category in the archive first rather that applying for "Gallery status" directly.
• As the placement in the "Archive" categories would be less critical, maybe it's a good idea to allow (some/most/all) users to move images around even if these are not their own. Possibly even allowing renaming, or having a seperate "subtitle" or "keywords" field that can be accessed by all.
• There is a difference between "Unknown" and "Unidentifiable", maybe this should be reflected in the category organization. Above, I read something about deleting "Unidentifiable" fungi images. To me that seems a shame as it would not only render old forum discussions useless, but there is always the off-chance that someone more knowledgeable may come along one day and even if not/never these images still do provide an insight of biodiversity even if they have no name other than "Fungus - unidentifiable" attached.
• Also, having a category "Unidentifiable" (maybe as subcats to Orders or Families or so) is much more of an invitation to real experts to give it a shot. The "Unknown" can still be a nice playground for nincompoops like me to see if they can bumb the ID up/down a taxonomic step.
• Once you have decided on a system, editing/moving rights, new/different categories etc etc, it may be a good idea to have a sticky in each forum crying out "Please move identified images" or so. Maybe point out that it's probably just a matter of "being civilized" to put in a little effort to update things if you ask/expect other people to put in an effort and help you with the ID (they put in the effort to help - you put in the effort to do something with the results). Also, as a campaign, ask regulars to add a notice to this effect to their sigs and make sure this has a link in it to a FAQ-page where the actions required are explained (and of course make it so that the actions required are simple and fast).

Stu, try to make as much use as possible of the human resources you have here!

Cheers,
Arp

On point 2, I've just set it up so that all members (25+ posts) can now edit anyone elses photos in the archive (not the gallery) to rename and move them to other categories in the archive.

I think that most of the other points would just overcomplicate things...and unfortunately, shouting instructions from the rooftops still doesn't work. We've tried massive and animated instructions that are still ignored.

When the gallery used to be combined, the gallery editors spent an absolutely enormous amount of time sorting out images that weren't correctly titled, categorised etc. As a result, what we needed was something that's as simple as possible:

1. A gallery for good quality, correctly id'ed and categorised photos - if they're not, they don't get in.

2. An archive for all other images

This leaves the gallery editors to get on with maintaining an outstanding gallery of British wildlife and environment images, and yet still have a place for members to upload all other pics.

As for using human resources, that's why we've got http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/fo...b-development/ forum - we need all the help we can get.

In fact, we could really do with some extra hands to go through all the old forum threads that have been titled something like "unidentified..." to change the title to the correctly id'ed species. That way, google and members will be able to search these threads more easily...any volunteers

Stu

[Pudding4brains]

Originally Posted by StuartDH

In fact, we could really do with some extra hands to go through all the old forum threads that have been titled something like "unidentified..." to change the title to the correctly id'ed species.

Do you have a clear guideline on procedure for this? Such as, on a French forum I visit every thread, one ID'ed has the best available ID in square brackets prepended to the original name, so you get thread names like this:

[Porcellio scaber] Which woodlouse?
[Armadillidium sp.] Pill bug or milipede?
etc.

On a german forum the ID is appended with an arrow "=>" so you get:
Which woodlouse? => Porcellio scaber
Pill bug or milipede? => Armadillidium sp.
etc.

Unfortunately of course only the thread starter and/or mods can do that. On the French forum mods are so precise in it (everything gets renamed!) that the culture among members is also such that almost anybody will rename his/her own thread (on WAB I don't even think it's possible as the edit button disappears after 30 minutes or so?). On the german forum the admin/mods don't do it, but just ask members to do it - resulting in a much lower number of "updated" thread names...

So, where is the WAB-guideline on this? How can members take their own responsibility?

Thanks for making the changes to the gallery shuffeling functions - I will have a look at it later to see what opportunities it offers for lending a hand.

So long
Arp

[DaiTheDragon]

Would it be an idea to have the unidentified forum section in the archive section so all disscusion and images would remain in the archive.

Dai

[StuartDH]

Originally Posted by Pudding4brains

Do you have a clear guideline on procedure for this? Such as, on a French forum I visit every thread, one ID'ed has the best available ID in square brackets prepended to the original name, so you get thread names like this:

[Porcellio scaber] Which woodlouse?
[Armadillidium sp.] Pill bug or milipede?
etc.

On a german forum the ID is appended with an arrow "=>" so you get:
Which woodlouse? => Porcellio scaber
Pill bug or milipede? => Armadillidium sp.
etc.

Unfortunately of course only the thread starter and/or mods can do that. On the French forum mods are so precise in it (everything gets renamed!) that the culture among members is also such that almost anybody will rename his/her own thread (on WAB I don't even think it's possible as the edit button disappears after 30 minutes or so?). On the german forum the admin/mods don't do it, but just ask members to do it - resulting in a much lower number of "updated" thread names...

So, where is the WAB-guideline on this? How can members take their own responsibility?

Thanks for making the changes to the gallery shuffeling functions - I will have a look at it later to see what opportunities it offers for lending a hand.

So long
Arp

Not really anything like the examples above, just basically whatever we think people would search on Google.

So at the moment, where we've got a thread titled something like "anyone know what this?" and it turns out to be a Green Hairstreak Butterfly, we could rename the thread to something like Green Hairstreak Butterfly or Unidentified Green Butterfly

Both are right, the first one is more correct, but the second would be a term that's probably searched more often on Google and so we'd get more visitors.

Either way, they're both better than 'anyone know what this is?'

[Mercadante]

Oh, is the reason I don't see the new icon that I am still a new member? That would explain things. Must post more.