An issue of rights we give to WAB

[Wes]

I have just been reading another thread (a sticky), "Please stop using third party website images" and have had my attention drawn to the terms and conditions of using WAB. The section that concerns me is the following paragraph:

By registering you acknowledge and agree that you are granting Wild About Britain, and its successors the perpetual and irrevocable non-exclusive right and licence to reproduce, edit, delete, distribute and display any or all content that you submit to us. We reserve all rights.

My concern revolves around a number of matters.

1. We not only grant WAB but any future organisation the rights to use material we submit. While I am happy for WAB to currently display my contributions, I am not necessarily at ease with any future company/organisation making monetary gain of my material, when possibly I may not be in agreement with their policies.

2. WAB has the "perpetual and irrevocable" use of our material. My preferred option would that the user would have the right to withhold his/her material from future use excepting the use that it was originally posted to on the WAB site. One could withhold the right for future publication in a different context whether on the web or print. Original submissions could be used as they were submitted.

3. WAB have a licence to "reproduce ...any or all content". This if my reading of the statement is correct gives WAB the right to publish in print or other medium our material. Again my preferred option would be to grant WAB the right to publish/display submitted material on their website only.

I don't mean to be controversial, but I sometimes have fears in giving away "all rights". This may be acceptance at the present moment, but who knows how the rights may be used in the future. WAB currently is a good place to be, lets keep it that way for the benefit of us all.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Wes

I have just been reading another thread (a sticky), "Please stop using third party website images" and have had my attention drawn to the terms and conditions of using WAB. The section that concerns me is the following paragraph:

By registering you acknowledge and agree that you are granting Wild About Britain, and its successors the perpetual and irrevocable non-exclusive right and licence to reproduce, edit, delete, distribute and display any or all content that you submit to us. We reserve all rights.

My concern revolves around a number of matters.

1. We not only grant WAB but any future organisation the rights to use material we submit. While I am happy for WAB to currently display my contributions, I am not necessarily at ease with any future company/organisation making monetary gain of my material, when possibly I may not be in agreement with their policies.

2. WAB has the "perpetual and irrevocable" use of our material. My preferred option would that the user would have the right to withhold his/her material from future use excepting the use that it was originally posted to on the WAB site. One could withhold the right for future publication in a different context whether on the web or print. Original submissions could be used as they were submitted.

3. WAB have a licence to "reproduce ...any or all content". This if my reading of the statement is correct gives WAB the right to publish in print or other medium our material. Again my preferred option would be to grant WAB the right to publish/display submitted material on their website only.

I don't mean to be controversial, but I sometimes have fears in giving away "all rights". This may be acceptance at the present moment, but who knows how the rights may be used in the future. WAB currently is a good place to be, lets keep it that way for the benefit of us all.

we had this debate to a fare thee well last week

1) wabs successor is not any company , to be a successor it would have to do the same as wab

2 ) this has come about through people taking the mick with wanting images taken down, loaded up, taken down etc

3) That would mean your pics couldnt be used on wab merchandise , calendars etc, creating uneccesary hassle for admin

edit: and you aren't being asked to give away "all rights" the T+Cs clearly stipulate non exclusive use

bottom line if you dont like the T&Cs dont upload your pictures , its not compulsory

[Susie]

Don't forget, it's all for charideee, mate. Poptastic.

[Gill Catton]

I wouldn't worry too much Wes, when people have gone in the past and asked for all of their images to be removed its been done with no problem. contributions to threads are kept - because otherwise historical threads would end up a right mess with posts removed. But pics - which is what presumably you'd be most concerned about are removed - its hassle for the mods obviously, but it can be done

[Susie]

Are you sure about that, Gill?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Susie

Are you sure about that, Gill?

the point of making the rights irrevocable is that they dont get removed (tho how the position stands with those who uploaded before the T+Cs changed is a grey area only stu can clarify) removing and general faffing about causes a tremendous ammount of hassle for eds, mods , and admin thus the change in T+Cs

[Wes]

Originally Posted by eeyore

we had this debate to a fare thee well last week

1) wabs successor is not any company , to be a successor it would have to do the same as wab

2 ) this has come about through people taking the mick with wanting images taken down, loaded up, taken down etc

3) That would mean your pics couldn't be used on wab merchandise , calendars etc, creating uneccesary hassle for admin

edit: and you aren't being asked to give away "all rights" the T+Cs clearly stipulate non exclusive use

bottom line if you don't like the T&Cs don't upload your pictures , its not compulsory

I didn't know this had been discussed last week. I just did a search and was unable to locate it. Could you point me to the thread.

re #1 It does not make much difference to my point if the successor is a charity.

re #2 what I am saying is that perpetual rights should be given for the displaying on the WAB site but only in their original context as posted. This would not entail any deletion etc of material already on the website; original submissions stay as published.

re #3 I think it would not be too difficult to seek permission to use submitted material if used for monetary gain in print or merchandise.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Susie

Are you sure about that, Gill?

I think so

[eeyore]

After discussing this with a mod or two we thought it would be useful to clarify what all the legalese exclusive , non exclusive means - I'm not a lawyer so dont base a court case on my advice but I am a semi pro photographer who deals with these things on a regular basis - If this looks familiar to some of you it is because a few people have already had this explanation via pm.

To whit

A photographer retains copy right to their work unless they assign / sell the copyright elsewhere.

however they can licence/give/ or sell the right to use their work on either a non exclusive , exclusive to type, or exclusive basis.

non exclusive use implies that the person assigned the right can use the image as they see fit but the image may also be sold/assigned elsewhere (although not on an exclusive basis)

Exclusive to type implies that for instance i I sold a pic on this basis to a postcard company, I could not then sell it to another post card company but would still be free to sell it elsewhere

while exclusive implies that only the person assigned the right may use the pictures. The difference between assigning exclusive use and assigning the copy right is that exclusive use cannot be sold on, whereas if you actually sell the copyright then the new copyright holder can sell or assign usage not you.

Also sale/asignation of usage rights of any type can either be irevocable, time limited or revocable on request.

irrevocable - you have assigned that right for ever

time limited - generally only applies to exclusive to type , in the example above I would for instance undertake not to sell to another postcard company for x years.

Revocable on request - the photographer can revoke rights at anytime , this is unusaul in sales , but is how wab used to be before a few individuals started taking the mick wanting pics taken down, put back up, taken down etc and generally creating excessive moderation work

So in the WAB case our terms say that photographers retain copyright but assign wab the usage of the pics on a non exclusive irrevocable basis - ie wab can use the pic how they see fit in perpetuity but the photographer can still sell or assign the rights elsewhere.

Thus the only reason not to post pics on this basis is as I originally said on FJs thread is if someone intends to sell or asign either the copyright or exclusive use, or if they dont own the copyright to the picture they are uploading.

I hope that this has clarified matters but if you have any further questions please feel free to come back to me tho it might be better to use pm rather than prolong the debate here.

[Susie]

I know of at least one person who is awaiting removal of their images.

Anyway, that doesn't take away from what a useful resource this forum is or how many great people there are on here.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Wes

I didn't know this had been discussed last week. I just did a search and was unable to locate it. Could you point me to the thread.

re #1 Does it make much difference if the successor is a company, a charity?

re #2 what I am saying is that perpetual rights should be given for the displaying on the WAB site but only in their original context as posted. This would not entail any deletion etc of material already on the website; original submissions stay as published.

re #3 I think it would not be too difficult to seek permission to use submitted material if used for monetary gain in print or merchandise.

I'm sorry wes but you specifically said in your first post that you had seen that thread - "please dont upload third party images" by FJ , perhaps you didnt read right through as there is quite a bit of it.

that thread was closed as the discussion was getting out of hand so it isnt best practice to reopen the debate in a new thread. Admin make the rules , so if you have an issue with them it is best to PM Stu rather than discuss it any further here. And as i said if you have a problem with WAB T+Cs you dont have to upload your pics.

[glsammy]

Just as a final comment here, ( I hope!) Here's the actual thread referred to. External Images

The terms are being reviewed now, so please no need for further comments here.

[Wes]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I'm sorry wes but you specifically said in your first post that you had seen that thread - "please dont upload third party images" by FJ , perhaps you didnt read right through as there is quite a bit of it.

that thread was closed as the discussion was getting out of hand so it isnt best practice to reopen the debate in a new thread. Admin make the rules , so if you have an issue with them it is best to PM Stu rather than discuss it any further here. And as i said if you have a problem with WAB T+Cs you dont have to upload your pics.

Yes eeyore, I was aware of the thread "please don't upload third party images", put that was about using third party sites not and how to upload image, not specifically terms and conditions, at least not the points I am raising. In one of your replies you speak of the T&C being changed; when did this happen?

I have also to say that I am somewhat hurt at what I consider the aggressive replies from eeyore. I will wait and see what further changes are made to the T&C.

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Wes

Yes eeyore, I was aware of the thread "please don't upload third party images", put that was about using third party sites not and how to upload image, not specifically terms and conditions, at least not the points I am raising. In one of your replies you speak of the T&C being changed; when did this happen?

I have also to say that I am somewhat hurt at what I consider the aggressive replies from eeyore. I will wait and see what further changes are made to the T&C.

I think Stu agreed to look into these T&Cs, no doubt in conjunction with legal advice, the views of the charity's trustees and so on. So we should probably wait until he has had a chance to do this. In the meantime, if anyone is concerned about the T&Cs then they shouldn't upload their images. But Pete's post above will hopefully correct a few misunderstandings.

Since there is little to be gained from further debate on this topic I will close this thread.

[StuartDH]

Thanks for your points Wes. As posted in the other thread, we're now looking into revising the rules and terms and conditions and will conssider your suggestions. To be honest I thought that eeyore's comments were very useful, but it may have been easier for you to simply send your comments to us via email/PM rather than start a new thread.

If anyone else has any points that they'd like us to consider, please PM me or email them to email@wildabout...

Originally Posted by Susie

Are you sure about that, Gill?

Two people were banned last year and recently asked for their images to be removed. I told them that as we’re busy it would take 90 days and that was less than 90 days ago. We should hopefully have the images removed this weekend and I’ve not had any complaints from them about this situation so I think it’s a bit unfair to insinuate that there are problems, as we're not aware of any.

Where possible, we try and accommodate member's requests to delete images, even though it can break links, ruin threads and takes a very long time to sort out. After spending (wasting) many, many hours recently deleting one member's images because they threw their rattle, I find it incredible that anyone should suggest that we're the ones who are creating the problems

The terms and conditions are there for good reasons, to protect the charity's interests and to safeguard the hundreds/thousands of hours of work that the gallery editors put into creating the gallery. Please do not upload images if you don't agree with the terms and conditions.