Advice on rights of way and access

[eeyore]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'green dot routes' - if you are talking about the driftways, roads used as public path etc , following the NERC 06 these should have all been reclassified as either boats (byway open to all traffic) or restricted byway (open to same users as a bridleway with th addition of horse drawn buggys with four wheels or fewer)

A few were removed from the def map entirely and added to the list of streets as UCR (unclassified roads)

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I'm not sure what you mean by 'green dot routes' - if you are talking about the driftways, roads used as public path etc , following the NERC 06 these should have all been reclassified as either boats (byway open to all traffic) or restricted byway (open to same users as a bridleway with th addition of horse drawn buggys with four wheels or fewer)

A few were removed from the def map entirely and added to the list of streets as UCR (unclassified roads)

They are the 'other route with public access (not normally shown in urban areas)'

My map is a 2009 OS map for the Eastern Area North York Moors, but just checked with the OS getamap and they are now shown in pink dots on there. And it appears that the national/regional cycle routes are now shown in green dots (those are pink dots on my map .. just to confuse everyone further )

This is what it says on the North Yorkshire CC website:
"Other routes with public access are shown on OS maps as a line of green dots. These may be permissive routes, or minor roads such as UURs (Unclassified Unsurfaced Roads, formerly known as Unclassified County Roads) which have at least footpath (and possibly higher) rights. UURs are highways, but, like all highways, exactly which rights exist over them is not clear, as there is no equivalent to the Definitive Map in terms of defining status for roads. Sometimes these routes are referred to as "green lanes", especially if they are unsurfaced, however, this term has no legal meaning."



We have loads of them in the North York Moors area. Had a problem with one of these last year ... landowner gated and locked it. North Yorkshire County Council told them to unlock it, which they did, but they left the lock and chain hanging on the gate, and left the no-entry sign up, making it appear that it was not a public route. It was a route that was very well used by horse-riders, cyclists, walkers and cars. Used as a byway. I've walked on it at a very quiet time of the day, and had cyclists and horse riders go past. And this very same route has been mentioned in a very recent planning application cabinet meeting as 'not a right of way, but it is used by a few walkers .....' Anyway the access team attention has now been drawn to it again ... not sure where they were when the application was discussed. But I guess we now know why the landowner had locked it, to try to 'lose' it before they applied to extend their quarry workings.

[eeyore]

if its a UUR/UCR then it wont be on the definitive map at all, and wont be the responsibility of the access team - instead it will be on the 'list of streets' and the responsibility of the highways team, and in terms of rights its essenrtially the same as any other road public road - except that the surface will probably be xexexexe so in practice it will be 4x4s, tractors, quads, or motorbikes only for motorised transport.

because they are roads rather than PRoW a who different set of legislation applies which is getting out of my specialism (highways acts 1980,91 etc)

with regard to other forms of 'green dot route' you mention - permissive paths are, well permissive, they are there by the permission of the landowner who can withdraw that permsion at anytime (just to complicate matters you also get issues of permisive higher rights on PRoW - for example it may legally be a footpath but the landowner gives voluntary consent for horses to use it)

cycleways - not to be confused with bridleways/restricted byways or byways or permissive cyclepaths - are another list of streets issue, responsibility of highways or in some councils a sustainable transport team not the PRoW teams (unless those functions are merged which they are in some councils)

and access in urban areas is a feindishly complicated issue - you get all of the above, plus ever definition of PRoW but much of the access is 'footway' - that is a surfaced path running alongside a road (e.g generally a pavement in laymans terms) - these are not listed on the def map or on the list of streets , but are generally the responsibility of the highways team as they are considered part of the road corridor and the roads ae listed on the list of streets

[Dorts]

In the village down-south where I lived for many years, we had a short-cut pathway over a piece of old common-land which included a bridge over a small stream. This route had no RoW, RUPP, BOAT, Bridalway or any other legal designation.
New owners who purchased the land with an adjacent cottage fenced the land, blocking the pathway, and pulled up the bridge.
I started a concerted effort to have something done. First I got statements from as many of the oldest residents who remember using this route in their childhood. We then got a petition together, but not the simple 'name and adress type' but full inividual statements from several hundred people in the village who said they used this route, stating for how long, the number of times per week, and what inconvenience it had caused by being closed.

Before long this 'cause' took a life of its own, many people became involved. All relevent authorities were including local newpapers were contacted.
This was in around 1996. I very recently heard that the path and bridge has just been re-instated and the path has been designated a RIght of Way.

So if there is a moral to my story,it is 'never give up if this path means a lot to you and others', for though it took us the best part of fifteen years, it shows that you can win the day.
Start making plans now, get together as much info possible, get as many involved as you can, there's more power in numbers.
All the best.
Dorts.

[eeyore]

classic case of a path that should have been on the definitive map but wasnt.

part of the problem with the def map is when it was originally drawn up in 1949 there was no such thing as a proffesional rights of way officer so the surveying was done by 'people of good standing' in the community - parish clerks and the like , most of whom had no experience and didnt really know what they were doing (it would have made more sense to use royal ordanace surveyors - but they and the MOD generally were a bit busy with other stuff in 1949)

also the defmap was compiled on a parish by parish basis with little liaison between parishes - which is why you get oddities like a path that is a bridleway one side of the parish boundary and a footpath the other - in my old pathch we also had a complete circuit of bridleway which didnt connect to any other bridleway, byway or road and so was completely innacessible to horses.

one last point re the def map closing in 2026 - dont be assuming that 15 years is plenty of time to act - many def map teams have huge backlogs with 6 or 7 years not being uncommon , so if you know of a path that you want to get registered you need to act asap

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by eeyore

part of the problem with the def map is when it was originally drawn up in 1949 there was no such thing as a proffesional rights of way officer so the surveying was done by 'people of good standing' in the community - parish clerks and the like , most of whom had no experience and didnt really know what they were doing (it would have made more sense to use royal ordanace surveyors - but they and the MOD generally were a bit busy with other stuff in 1949)

also the defmap was compiled on a parish by parish basis with little liaison between parishes - which is why you get oddities like a path that is a bridleway one side of the parish boundary and a footpath the other - in my old pathch we also had a complete circuit of bridleway which didnt connect to any other bridleway, byway or road and so was completely innacessible to horses.

That parish thing explains a lot about N Yorkshire ... just why all those landed gentry estates have next to no ROW on them ... the estates are or were the parishes, the councillors comprised of the estate owner, the estate manager and some of the tenants, who have to doff their hats to their landlord/employer ... So they'll say to their tenants ... you have permissive rights as you are 'special', and no other riff-raff allowed ... keeps them quiet. They think they are special, don't realise they have no rights, that the estate can reverse them at will. And it keeps the riff-raff out, and keeps the estate in complete control ....

[SheffieldLass]

Originally Posted by eeyore

if its a UUR/UCR then it wont be on the definitive map at all, and wont be the responsibility of the access team - instead it will be on the 'list of streets' and the responsibility of the highways team, and in terms of rights its essenrtially the same as any other road public road - except that the surface will probably be xexexexe so in practice it will be 4x4s, tractors, quads, or motorbikes only for motorised transport.

because they are roads rather than PRoW a who different set of legislation applies which is getting out of my specialism (highways acts 1980,91 etc)

with regard to other forms of 'green dot route' you mention - permissive paths are, well permissive, they are there by the permission of the landowner who can withdraw that permsion at anytime (just to complicate matters you also get issues of permisive higher rights on PRoW - for example it may legally be a footpath but the landowner gives voluntary consent for horses to use it)

cycleways - not to be confused with bridleways/restricted byways or byways or permissive cyclepaths - are another list of streets issue, responsibility of highways or in some councils a sustainable transport team not the PRoW teams (unless those functions are merged which they are in some councils)

and access in urban areas is a feindishly complicated issue - you get all of the above, plus ever definition of PRoW but much of the access is 'footway' - that is a surfaced path running alongside a road (e.g generally a pavement in laymans terms) - these are not listed on the def map or on the list of streets , but are generally the responsibility of the highways team as they are considered part of the road corridor and the roads ae listed on the list of streets

Thanks for all of that ... I knew there were some knowledgeable people on here whose brains I could pick.

Also the bit about the parishes. That is why the ROW stop on one side and start on the other. Different parishes on either side and one in between. Must be a lot of bald and fit people in the two outer parishes. Get to the parish boundary and then scratch their heads .... decide whether they hike two miles north or south, cross then 2 miles back on the other side.

Oh by the way, now have the name of the local horse society person who is apparently very good, very dogged on rights of way.

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by SheffieldLass

Thanks for all of that ... I knew there were some knowledgeable people on here whose brains I could pick.

I have sent you some PMs, very keen to help all I can.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by SheffieldLass

. That is why the ROW stop on one side and start on the other. Different parishes on either side and one in between. Must be a lot of bald and fit people in the two outer parishes. Get to the parish boundary and then scratch their heads .... decide whether they hike two miles north or south, cross then 2 miles back on the other side.
.

the other classic case is the military ranges - mainly set up/extended in the cold war years - there the paths were extinguished by act of parliment so you get all these paths going up to the edge then stopping dead and starting again on the other side.