Tick bites!

[nightshade]

Celiar I for one appreciate your input on a subject that clearly needed
to be better publisized I never liked Ticks and like them less now
(thanks for the original question Rich) There could be hundreds of people
feeling unwell and not really knowing why,is there a leaflet that I could
give to the GP's at my local surgery?

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by celiar

Why do you say that people with Lyme disease are 'likely to gravitate' to a board like this?

To be fair to hobjob I think you will find that he mean that lymes disease sufferers would gravitate to this thread , rather than to the boards as a whole , which is fair comment as sufferes are likely to gravitate to discussions of their illness.

That said I agree with you about the general ignorance of the disease of some in the medical profession, and thus the lack of treatment provided.

in answer to nightshade point this http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...GB&oi=scholart is a list of scholarly articles on lymes which you could point your GP towards if he is not already aware of the condition.

[celiar]

Originally Posted by nightshade

Celiar I for one appreciate your input on a subject that clearly needed
to be better publisized I never liked Ticks and like them less now (thanks for the original question Rich)

Thanks Nightshade. This is definitely a subject that needs to be better publicised especially here in the UK.

This is a quote from Pest Control News (August 2006):

"........if we look at data from the Communicable Disease Surveillance Centre (CDSC), stretching back to 1986 for the UK. In combination with the Eurosurveillance data, it shows that incidence in England and Wales has not doubled or even trebled but has increased 18-fold from 1986 to 2005!”

Yet still Lyme disease is considered by many health professionals to be rare.

There could be hundreds of people feeling unwell and not really knowing why,is there a leaflet that I could give to the GP's at my local surgery?

There could indeed! However it is a sad fact that efforts to enlighten GP's are more often than not met with strong resistance, and in many cases direct opposition. They somehow see it as an affront, and most are unwilling to read literature on the subject or even discuss it. There are one or two more enlightened doctors in the UK but they are sadly few and far between. The experience of many people is that GP’s generally like to think they know best, even when the weight of evidence is to the contrary. I've known people who have turned up at their GP's surgery who have had a known tick bite, have the typical Erythema Migrans rash that can accompany Lyme disease (although it's absent in over 50% of cases), and have common symptoms of early Lyme disease infection, i.e., flu-like, headaches, sore throats, fatigue etc., yet the GP has said categorically that they can't possibly have Lyme and offered no treatment. Lyme disease can then lay dormant in the system for weeks, months and even years and be triggered later by another illness, pregnancy or a trauma. So instead of it being dealt with early by a short course of antibiotic treatment this person can then go on to develop a multi-systemic illness which is much harder to deal with. GP's also have a habit of dismissing information that comes from the internet. It’s an uphill struggle!

There are leaflets and posters available for download free on www.bada-uk.org, as I’ve suggested previously. I can’t stress how important and informative these leaflets are. Although they are aimed at ‘at risk’ groups they do contain information about the threat to the UK, the various tick-borne diseases, as well as advice on how to prevent them in the first place. I understand that some GP’s have been willing to display them though this is not always the case unfortunately.

Tick awareness and the danger ticks represent in the transmission of these horrendous infections is really best done amongst the people who are in the 'front line'. 1 in 3 ticks is infected, so anyone who goes out into the great outdoors needs to be aware of the risk so that hopefully we can prevent it happening to them in the first place, or to enlighten them as to what the cause may be if they do become ill. Early treatment is essential.

The best thing you, and others, could do, is to download the free leaflets available that BADA-UK have on their website, for yourself, but also make them available to the groups you belong to. There are posters free for download too. Those groups could include, golfers, ramblers, horse riders, anglers, mountaineers, campers, wildlife photographers, the list is endless. Also use the links on the FAQ's and FACTS pages for more in depth information that can be printed off.

BADA-UK also offers a dedicated discussion forum on their site, of which I am a member. The forum is called ‘Tick Talk’ so is very pertinent to this topic. All are welcome to participate and it would be good if we could find a way to improve community awareness too. They offer a selection of ideas on how individuals can raise awareness amongst their local community, and of course they are always open to new suggestions and ideas.

For some who may already have been infected with this devastating infection, like me, the motivation and passion to prevent others from experiencing a similar fate is strong. BADA-UK is a group of patients all affected by Lyme borreliosis along with a cocktail of other known tick-borne diseases. They also happen to be the only charity in the UK actively promoting and offering improved understanding and awareness of ticks and the diseases they can pass on. It is only through the efforts of groups such as BADA-UK, and individuals such as you, that the powers that be will finally wake up to the ‘ticking time-bomb’ we have in our midst.

[senua]

This might be of interest:

Scientists Identify Immune System Trigger For Fighting Lyme Disease

Researchers at the La Jolla Institute for Allergy & Immunology (LIAI) has announced an important finding on Lyme disease that could eventually lead to the development of a new vaccine to prevent this tick-borne disorder.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0822150046.htm

[celiar]

Originally Posted by senua

This might be of interest:

Scientists Identify Immune System Trigger For Fighting Lyme Disease

Researchers at the La Jolla Institute for Allergy & Immunology (LIAI) has announced an important finding on Lyme disease that could eventually lead to the development of a new vaccine to prevent this tick-borne disorder.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0822150046.htm

It remains to be seen whether it's any better than the Lymerix vaccine against Lyme disease that actually made people ill with, yes you've got it, Lyme disease!

I'll be watching this space.

[senua]

Deer-free Areas May Be Haven For Ticks, Disease

Excluding deer could be a counterproductive strategy for controlling tick-borne infections, because the absence of deer from small areas may lead to an increase in ticks, rapidly turning the area into a potential disease hotspot, according to a team of U.S. and Italian researchers.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0830214714.htm

[speckled wood]

One reason that I am relectant to take friends and relatives along with me on field trips is that they always seem to want to wear shorts and other clothing that leaves them exposed to the risk of attack from things like nettle stings and ticks. I might get laughed at by keeping cvered whatever the weather but so far (touch wood) I have escaped such attacks.

[James21]

I had the same problem when i went on a high rope course i found the tick early got rid of it never really thought about it at first but friends said it was a tick and it ended up as a put off from going again. Thanks for the info i feel a bit more safe to do it again as it was a great day out.

[snowdrop]

Brilliant tip Kev.

Hey, Rich.
I cant for the life of me remember the name of the man in your Avatar. What is it pleeeease.? And what was the name of the Tv programme he used to be in?
It was a smashing country persuits programme.

[Fritillary]

Originally Posted by hobjob
Blood tests are unreliable - you should be treated on the symptoms even if blood tests are negative, and they usually are soon after the bite

I think as well that it is too much be treated if you dont have any symptoms.
take things easy, too much worry could do you become to feel symptoms when you have nothing.
Even the illness is not dangerous, I want to say, since the first symptoms, you are being treated and you will be fine 100 %

Dont spoil you escapes to the nature

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Rich_

Anyone have any experience of ticks.

Went walking yesterday and found one embedded in my flesh today, don't know if it had attached its self then or been in my jacket and attached today. It didn't look particularly engorged as it's body was still quite flat.

My main concern was lyme disease which these beasts can carry. I had it removed by a nurse at the local surgery (who splattered it with the tweezers, I could have done that myself). She thinks she got the head out after a bit of digging. I did ask her about the risk of lyme disease but she said it was minimal. Do any of you think differently?

The inexperience of your nurse makes me shudder, in all seriousness you'd have been better going to a Vet.

Get yourself an O'Tom Tick Remover They cost next to nothing and work brilliantly removing the entire tick easily without squashing it and allowing it to disgorge its contents into the wound in the process which adds to the risk factor. I always carry one with me on my bag when I'm out and about.

You might find some discussions on BCUK useful. There is a lot of helpful and detailed information on there on the subject.

[Hobjob]

For those interested in Lyme disease the Infectious Disease Society of America have recently published long and very erudite advice on Lyme Disease - as relating to USA, but most of it applies to Eurasia too.

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"For prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite, routine use of antimicrobial prophylaxis or serologic testing is not recommended"

[celiar]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

"For prevention of Lyme disease after a recognized tick bite, routine use of antimicrobial prophylaxis or serologic testing is not recommended"

Correct! – No amount of prophylactic treatment or inconclusive blood testing will prevent anyone from contracting Lyme disease/Borreliosis, because, by the time you’ve been bitten you could already be infected.

With such ‘erudite’ information and logic is it any wonder Borreliosis is still classed as an incredibly rare disease in the UK, whilst at the same time there are approximately 240,000 children and adults diagnosed with ME/CFS, whilst Scotland has the highest percentage per head of population, in the entire civilised world, of people diagnosed as having Multiple Sclerosis (MS). Symptoms of chronic Borreliosis are known to mimic those attributed to both ME/CFS and MS, along with a whole host of other idiopathic conditions presided over by the NHS.

With studies detailing on average 1 in 3 ticks in the UK infected with one or more bacterial/protozoal infections I fail to understand your insistence of promoting such narrow minded logic.

I have lived with this infection all my life, I personally know many individuals who have suffered equally, and there are quite literally hundreds of people in the UK being refused treatment due to the inconclusive blood testing techniques as recommended by yourself and IDSA. I sincerely hope that you never fall ill with such infections, but if you think that by reading such information you know best, then I’ve got better things to do with what health I have than try to dissuade you.

However, I will say again, for those of you interested in accurate information on how to prevent becoming infected with Lyme disease, Borreliosis, or any of the other known tick-borne infections not routinely tested for in the UK see Bada-uk Home Page

[Airehead]

Every time I go to the Highlands I pick up a tick. Done it again, this time on the north coast. Went for a walk off the path, across wet moorland with long grass, found myself scratching two spots later in bed. Puts a whole new meaning on the expression "back in two ticks".

[Hobjob]

Originally Posted by celiar

Correct! – No amount of prophylactic treatment or inconclusive blood testing will prevent anyone from contracting Lyme disease/Borreliosis, because, by the time you’ve been bitten you could already be infected.

With such ‘erudite’ information and logic is it any wonder Borreliosis is still classed as an incredibly rare disease in the UK, whilst at the same time there are approximately 240,000 children and adults diagnosed with ME/CFS, whilst Scotland has the highest percentage per head of population, in the entire civilised world, of people diagnosed as having Multiple Sclerosis (MS). Symptoms of chronic Borreliosis are known to mimic those attributed to both ME/CFS and MS, along with a whole host of other idiopathic conditions presided over by the NHS.

With studies detailing on average 1 in 3 ticks in the UK infected with one or more bacterial/protozoal infections I fail to understand your insistence of promoting such narrow minded logic.[/url]

Dear Celiar

The link I posted was to:

"""
Evidence-based guidelines for the management of patients with Lyme disease, human granulocytic anaplasmosis (formerly known as human granulocytic ehrlichiosis), and babesiosis were prepared by an expert panel of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. These updated guidelines replace the previous treatment guidelines published in 2000 (Clin Infect Dis 2000; 31[Suppl 1]:1–14). The guidelines are intended for use by health care providers who care for patients who either have these infections or may be at risk for them. For each of these Ixodes tickborne infections, information is provided about prevention, epidemiology, clinical manifestations, diagnosis, and treatment. Tables list the doses and durations of antimicrobial therapy recommended for treatment and prevention of Lyme disease and provide a partial list of therapies to be avoided. A definition of post–Lyme disease syndrome is proposed.
"""
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You appear to think that you know better than these world experts
as you accuse me of "peddling such narrow minded logic".

I leave others to read the paper and decide for themselves.

[Fritillary]

Well I think the key of everything is the comun sense.

Sometimes the "experts" made huge mistakes, we dont have to forget they are human as well. In part is because of the results of their research which is human, but as well because in medicine, they need to be paid for what they do. If they dont say X illness is very dangerous, their jobs would dissapear because nobody would like to give money to do this research.

In the same way, the information we get in most of occasions is the "translation" from the scientific journals to newspapers, radio and TV, which journalist modify a lot. Examples Aids, bird flu, etc etc. I dont remember how many times the humanity should have dissapeared from the Earth because of these illness.

Another thing, it is cultural. Europeans are "terrorised" (in general) about tropical illness and sting of insects or plants or microorganisms. While in another countries, less developped, you are living among them and nothing happen, here it is the caos if you find any insect.

I remember in my parents home (Mexico) Always I had seen black widows in the garden. I knew what they could produce one day I read an european book about spiders. I just couldnt believed what the book said: Extremely dangerous, they could kill you if sting on you. I have seen them many times all my life and never I heard of somebody be stung or less dying because of these spiders. Even if I moved their spiderweb, they escaped terrorised. They are not dangerous. Well I think you should touch them with your hands to be stung. But well that it is to try to comit suicide.

Coming back to the ticks and their illness, it is bacterial and taking the medication, you can be fine. So ok, it is fine take care and avoid sticks, but we dont need to be terrorised if someone stick on us.

I am not specialist in ticks, but I have enougt knowledge in biology to see what is true and what is sensationalist.

[celiar]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

Dear Celiar

The link I posted was to:


Evidence-based guidelines for the management of patients with Lyme disease, human granulocytic anaplasmosis (formerly known as human granulocytic ehrlichiosis), and babesiosis were prepared by an expert panel of the Infectious Diseases Society of America. These updated guidelines replace the previous treatment guidelines published in 2000 (Clin Infect Dis 2000; 31[Suppl 1]:1–14). The guidelines are intended for use by health care providers who care for patients who either have these infections or may be at risk for them. For each of these Ixodes tickborne infections, information is provided about prevention, epidemiology, clinical manifestations, diagnosis, and treatment. Tables list the doses and durations of antimicrobial therapy recommended for treatment and prevention of Lyme disease and provide a partial list of therapies to be avoided. A definition of post–Lyme disease syndrome is proposed.

You appear to think that you know better than these world experts
as you accuse me of "peddling such narrow minded logic".

Speaking of world experts:

ILADS Demands Retraction of New IDSA Guidelines...

10/27/2006 5:12:00 PM


To: National Desk, Health Reporter

Contact: Raphael Stricker, 415-823-4007 or Richard Horowitz, 845-229-8977 or Barbara Buchman, 301-263-1080, all of International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society

WASHINGTON, Oct. 27 /U.S. Newswire/ -- Recently published Lyme disease guidelines from the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA) "threaten to harm patients and patient care," writes Dr.Raphael Stricker, president of the International Lyme and Associated
Diseases Society (ILADS) in an angry and highly unusual letter to Dr.Sherwood Gorbach, editor of 'Clinical Infectious Diseases.' The letter calls for retraction of the article, "The clinical assessment,treatment, and prevention of Lyme disease, human granulocytic anaplasmosis, and babesiosis: Clinical practice guidelines by the Infectious Diseases Society of America."

Authors used exclusionary data selection, writes Dr. Stricker, which substantially biased the resulting diagnosis and treatment recommendations and ignored opposing or dissenting views.

Lyme disease is a major public health problem caused by a complex bacterial agent carried and spread by ticks. Lyme bacteria have the ability to evade immune destruction, entrench themselves deep within tissues and migrate throughout the body causing a multi-system
illness. There is no single reliable diagnostic laboratory test and there is no universally accepted treatment for Lyme disease.

In a point-by-point analysis of the guidelines, Dr. Stricker states IDSA's position reflects a biased view of the disease that's either unsubstantiated or refuted by existing peer- reviewed medical literature. "The IDSA's 'one-size fits all' approach to Lyme diagnosis and treatment will result in misdiagnosis and denial of care to thousands of patients annually," writes Dr. Stricker in the letter to Dr. Gorbach, "creating a public health burden as...patients become chronically ill and disabled."

"We believe the same principles of scientific integrity that apply to medical research should also apply to practice guidelines," states Dr. Stricker. The IDSA authors deliberately excluded divergent points of view, he adds. As a result, ten of IDSA's central recommendations are based solely on opinion, considered the weakest level of evidence
in science circles.

ILADS demands immediate retraction of the guidelines article and subsequent CDC notification; creation of a new Lyme disease guidelines committee comprised of diverse points of view to reformulate the guidelines; and then submission of revised guidelines
for outside peer review to a medical journal independent of IDSA.

Dr. Stricker's letter was widely distributed to CDC, NIH, FDA and leading national physician organizations.

ILADS ( ILADS - International Lyme And Associated Diseases Society ) is a multi-specialty medical society comprised of all sub-specialists who treat Lyme disease, including infectious disease specialists, neurologists, rheumatologists, psychiatrists, endocrinologists and internal medicine physicians.
President Dr. Raphael B. Stricker is medical director of Union Square Medical Associates in San Francisco.

U.S. Newswire - A PR Newswire Company

[kit001]

Originally Posted by darwin

In Scotland last year, the dogs kept getting ticks on them all the time. Every night we searched and removed as many as we could but there was always some got through.

Vets recommendation is smother the tick in Vaseline, then it cant breath and it dies in a few hours-removal is easier then.

On the second last day, we bought some Bob Martin Spot On from Tescos for about £6, applied to the dogs and the next day I walked the Badenoch Way through heather and all and not one tick on either of them. Best £6 I have ever spent but I wish I had had been told earlier in the week though!

Hi there, I work in boarding kennels ( in the NE of Scotland)and have an HND in animal care which included a unit on parasitology (taught by a head veterinary nurse married to a vet).

PLEASE dont use vaseline, cigarettes ot any other chemical to remove ticks

Anyone visiting or working in rural areas are at risk from tick bites. This can also include public spaces such as beer gardens, picnic spots, parks and gardens. High risk groups are those participating in camping, hiking/trekking, cycling, climbing and other outdoor activities and pursuits, also individuals such as the armed forces, forestry workers, park rangers. To find out more information about ticks and Lyme Disease visit Lyme Disease Action a UK charity dedicated to the prevention and treatment of Lyme -
If you do find a tick on you or your pet, it is very important to remove it quickly and safely. Experts recommend tick removal tools rather than tweezers unless trained in their use. Never try to remove a tick using chemicals, cigarettes or vaseline as this can cause the tick to regurgitate infection into your blood stream.

[rich5x5]

hi

Just got back from Oban, or tick central!!!!! The dog has been covered in ticks. I have now lost count how many i have pulled out of her using a special tool.
On Monday went to walk in the mountains, then that night i found there were a lot running through her fur. I did notice one whilst on the walk so called in for a treatment on the way back. It was put on that night. Tuesday i spent the day pulling more off of her and some that were dug in.
Took her to the vets on Wednesday and the dog was given a different product. Well since wednesday i have been pulling burrowed ticks off of her quite regularly. It is now Sunday and just found another last night. It looked more grey than the red/ orange of the others i have found. Also when i pulled it out it hardly moved. Now does this mean that the treatment is now finally working and they are now dying? Or is it just a different
coloured tick and the nightmare of finding more continues. I live near the lake district and have never had an issue before so am trying to find out more.
why have they taken so long to die? would i have brought some home on clothing etc?
Thanks

[darwin]

Do you find the tick removal tool useful-I was thinking of getting one for my 2 dogs.

I'll stick to using Bob Martin Spot On for my dogs, seems to be fine for ticks (so far!)

[Vipera]

Me and my bud often encounter ticks whilst searching for reptiles, a lot of people are scared of snakes but its the ticks that im scared off!
Only a few days ago we were looking in a area thats very near to us where we have found Adders Slow Worms and Common Lizards, but unfortuntley its also infested with ticks, we found loads crawling up our jeans which we picked of as many as we could, yet my freind missed one and he got bit, i think hes been bitten about 3 times now, they dont seem to like my blood because i have not found one on me, yet! unless they feed on me at night and then drop off so i diont even realise, i do sometimes get bitten by something, i dont wanna know what but i get a itchy red bump now and then but my freind says he never feels anything when bitten by a tick, he only knows because he can see the wretched thing stuck to him all engorged on his blood, bleeeeeeeeeeurgh!!!
and for your enjoyment here is a tic pic! Me and my bud often encounter ticks whilst searching for reptiles, a lot of people are scared of snakes but its the ticks that im scared off!
Only a few days ago we were looking in a area thats very near to us where we have found Adders Slow Worms and Common Lizards, but unfortuntley its also infested with ticks, we found loads crawling up our jeans which we picked of as many as we could, yet my freind missed one and he got bit, i think hes been bitten about 3 times now, they dont seem to like my blood because i have not found one on me, yet! unless they feed on me at night and then drop off so i diont even realise, i do sometimes get bitten by something, i dont wanna know what but i get a itchy red bump now and then but my freind says he never feels anything when bitten by a tick, he only knows because he can see the wretched thing stuck to him all engorged on his blood, bleeeeeeeeeeurgh!!!
and for your enjoyment here is a tic pic!

[ron1863]

Originally Posted by eeyore

The trouble with burning them, zapping them with mozzie rep, smothering them with cream etc is that the shock makes them regurgitate into your bloodstream which is precisely whay you dont want.

yanking them off works but it hurts because their proboscis is corkscrew shaped so you are also yanging out a little tube of flesh, it also risks leaving the probosics behind which will then become infected like a splinter,

it is best to hold them firmly behind the mouthparts with tweezers and unscrew them in an anti clockwise direction (left hand down), holding the mouth parts fimly also stops them spitting infected blood back into you.

A tick screwdriver would be an ideal invention