Tick bites!

[Chalk Downlanders]

Originally Posted by Kev Lewis

I have a small bottle of chloroform which I use on ticks that my dog picks up and occasionally on myself. A dab wit a cotton bud dipped in chloroform seems to work very well as they just fall out

I once had a bottle of chloroform but I spilt it all when I tried to see what it smelt like
Seriously, how can i get hold of some as I find these things on me everytime I go out.

Kev

[Kev Lewis]

I'm not sure you can actually buy it from the chemist anymore because of legal restrictions??? but that is where I bought mine along time ago and as long as I make sure the cap is tight it will last forever

[Gaina]

Originally Posted by Chalk Downlanders

I once had a bottle of chloroform but I spilt it all when I tried to see what it smelt like
Seriously, how can i get hold of some as I find these things on me everytime I go out.

Kev

Surgical Spirit does the trick too. My cat had one once and when I rang the vet, the nurse said just put some surgical spirit on a piece of cotton wool and coat it with the stuff twice a day. They shrivel and fall off pretty quickly, so I keep a big bottle on stand-by now, which you can get for any chemist.


Gaina

[littlelb]

Does anyone know if ticks are prevelant in the Snowdonia area of Wales?

My husband's doctor thinks he may have Lymes disease and we were on holiday there a couple of weeks ago. If you do have any flu like symtons or a ring like rash after a tick bite ad if value your sanity(or that of your partner may I add), go to the docs to get it checked. My husband is a fit 35year old and I have never seen anyone look so bad.

[Hobjob]

>>>
Why not ? Lymes disease is cured by antibiotics and that is what penicilin is afterall, as far as I know there arent any resistant strains around yet. It is unlikely that the doctor will prescribe stronger synthetics such as keflex unless you have already tried penecillin as they try to keep the big gun antibiotic on close hold to prevent bugs building up resistance to them
>>>

The bug of Lyme Disease (Borrelia burghdor feri) is not particularly sensitive to Penicillin (aka Penicillin V), any more than the bug of Tuberculosis, salmonella or most of the bugs causing uirnary tract infections are very sensitive to pencillin V.

It is responsive to the common broad spectrum penicillin, amoxicillin, if given in highish dose early in the disease.

It also depends on whether it is the spreading skin rash (erythema migrans) or an arthritis, hear or neurological problems that are being treated. There are different regimes for each - some involving intravenous high dose stuff.

The initial skin rash is the easiest to treat, but because this is an odd bug it is given for a lot longer than other antibiotics - always 10 days, and many people give for three weeks.

>>>
you are partially correct here, the disease is transmited by the tick regurgitating infected blood from its stomach contents into you (nice), however the bite itself is not infectious so if you remove the tick quickly you lessen your chances of exposure.
>>>

I am sorry you are not correct - I'm sure google will confirm!
What I said was
"The tick infects you by biting - it does not need to suck blood to infect you."

I am 100% confident of this statement. This is the same as in malaria, it is the saliva tranmitted by the bite that may infect you. It is said that the chances of infection are greater the longer that the tick is on the skin. I have not looked into the evidence for this statement, but it seems reasonable, for the tick, just like a mosqito, needs to continue inject small amounts of saliva which contains an anit-clotting agent/ anti-coagulant in order to be able to suck up blood - without this our bodies would cause a clot and no more blood for the blighter, but as always evolution has got the better of us!

It is claimed that regurgitated stomach contents increase the infective load - this is not proven, but sounds reasonable at first sight. I am unconvinced; It is known that the stomach fluids do contain the bug, but one could argue that once they are diluted by a large does of your uninfected blood further regurgitation of stomach contents will make little difference to the infected load of bugs getting in your system.

We simply do not know for sure - the research has not been done.

>>>
very true , however doctors see loads of hypochondriacs on a regular basis demanding antibiotics for a range of ailments, so getting them to prescribe without a blood test is likely to be challenging (although this depends very much on your relationship with your doctor)
>>>

Not so - doctors are very well aware that Lyme disease is around and that the consequences of untreated lyme disease can be serious with nasty neurological disease a major risk. Most will have a low level for treating this unusual disease and medical microbiologists and infectious disease specialists are at the end of a phone to advise or see if necessary.

The difference between not prescribing for a sore sore throat (which is usually viral, and even if bacterial the antibiotics only reduce the symptoms by one day) and not prescribing for a potential case of Lyme disease are worlds apart.

There is clear advice for GPs that cases should be treated on the clincial findings (spreading red rash around a bite - tick may not have been seen) because, as I stated before, blood tests are unreliable, especially early in the disease, and early treatment has better results than late treatment.

The advice is that if NO clinical features of the illness exist that antibiotics should not be given just because someone has just been bitten by a tick. Things may be a bit different in the states for a variety of reasons, mainly because the illness is much more common in certain areas.

In fact GPs don't see loadsa people with hypochondriasis who want antibiotics - they see loadsa people with various symptoms, usually including fever, who believe themselves to be ill and wonder if they have a serious bacterial illness; this is to be expected when the media hypes up everything, and in the past every fever was treated by an anti-biotic.

Hypochondriasis is somewhat different, not especially common but we won't go there!

Hobjob
(retired GP! I worked in a high Red Deer area for 25 years and never recognized a case of lyme disease or had any feed back that I missed any!!)

I have done a quick skim of google scholar to check some of the above
http://omni.ac.uk/browse/mesh/D008193.html
http://www.oeghmp.at/eucalb/disease_overview_index.html
http://www.wadhurst.demon.co.uk/lyme/

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

The bug of Lyme Disease (Borrelia burghdor feri) is not particularly sensitive to Penicillin (aka Penicillin V), It is responsive to the common broad spectrum penicillin, amoxicillin, if given in highish dose early in the disease.

Okay, but to a layman there is no difference between penecillin v and broad spectrum penecillin, in fact many people use "penecilin" as a generic term for antibiotics generally.

Originally Posted by hobjob

I am sorry you are not correct - I'm sure google will confirm!
What I said was "The tick infects you by biting - it does not need to suck blood to infect you." I am 100% confident of this statement.

you may be 100% confident but in fact medical literature is split on the exact cause and route of infection as you said "We simply do not know for sure - the research has not been done." the fact remains that having a tick regurgiate another creatures blood into you cannot be a good thing and it is wise to avoid it if at all possible.

Originally Posted by hobjob

Not so - doctors are very well aware that Lyme disease is around and that the consequences of untreated lyme disease can be serious with nasty neurological disease a major risk.

this may have been true where you were working but it is not my experience or that of many other countryside workers

Originally Posted by hobjob

In fact GPs don't see loadsa people with hypochondriasis who want antibiotics - they see loadsa people with various symptoms, usually including fever, who believe themselves to be ill and wonder if they have a serious bacterial illness; this is to be expected when the media hypes up everything, and in the past every fever was treated by an anti-biotic.

Hypochondriasis is somewhat different, not especially common but we won't go there!

I am sorry but this is pure pedantry - it is perfectly clear that i was using the term "hypochondriac" in the common layman sense of the word to mean "someone who thinks they are ill when they arent" My best freind is a practice nurse and in the last week her surgery has seen 6 people convinced they have bird flu, three who thought they had west nile virus, and two who thought they had ebola. All were demanding antibiotics (despite the fact that they would have been pointless against any of these diseases) and none were actually ill.

Eeyore

(proffesional countryside warden for 12 years , often working in deer and sheep country, diagnosed with lymes disease twice, both confirmed by blood test and both cured vy broad spectrum penecillin)

[Mr Mag00]

'15 all'

[Hobjob]

Hi Eeyore,

I love a good debate, but others will get bored ;-)
I was going to reply off lilst, but you have misquoted me, so at the risk of boring others I am replying here.

No the medical literature is not divided on how the infection is spread - it is spread by saliva.

There is uncertainty about whether or not the infective load is increased (and by implication the illness more serious) when stomach contents are regurgitated into humans.

My comment: "We simply do not know for sure - the research has not been done" soley related to this uncertainty, not as you imply to whether or not infection occurs by saliva in biting. Such subtle and potentially misleading quoting is common in the mass media but should be avoided on forums like this.

I understand exactly why you feel that I was guilty of pedantry in discussing hypochondriasis - but a quick goodle (e.g http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic3122.htm , the first non advert choice) will show you that hypochondriasis is considered to be psychological illness. Many people, and I'm sure many reading this, seek the help of doctors and nurses when they feel unwell, especially if they have fever. I was trying to gently point out that being a bit dismissive and labelling them as hypochondriacs was being unkind (and inaccurate).

I suspect that the patients that your great friend the practice nurse has remarked upon will have had some symptoms, probably fever and aches and pains (and in the case of the ?bird flu, some snuffles, cough etc.) - why else would they think they have serious infections?

This means that they _were_ ill, were worried about it and sought help. OK they may not have been seriously ill, but to write them off as "none was actually ill" is unkind. Such feelings in health workers also makes it difficult to reassure and help those worried about their health understand how to handle minor infections on there own next time.

Dismissive attitudes are readily noticed by those who are feeling under the weather.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

Hi Eeyore,

I understand exactly why you feel that I was guilty of pedantry in discussing hypochondriasis - but a quick goodle (e.g http://www.emedicine.com/MED/topic3122.htm , the first non advert choice) will show you that hypochondriasis is considered to be psychological illness. Many people, and I'm sure many reading this, seek the help of doctors and nurses when they feel unwell, especially if they have fever. I was trying to gently point out that being a bit dismissive and labelling them as hypochondriacs was being unkind (and inaccurate).

I suspect that the patients that your great friend the practice nurse has remarked upon will have had some symptoms, probably fever and aches and pains (and in the case of the ?bird flu, some snuffles, cough etc.) - why else would they think they have serious infections?

This means that they _were_ ill, were worried about it and sought help. OK they may not have been seriously ill, but to write them off as "none was actually ill" is unkind. Such feelings in health workers also makes it difficult to reassure and help those worried about their health understand how to handle minor infections on there own next time.

Dismissive attitudes are readily noticed by those who are feeling under the weather.

I am not unwise enough to argue with a doctor about what the medical lieterature says (or at least not without a great deal of research , which I dont have time for now) so on the route of infection I bow to your greater knowledge - for the moment .

However on the off topic bit the OED http://www.askoxford.com/results/?vi...archtype=exact defines a hypochondiac as "someone who worries abnormally about their health" which suggest that in normal usage the term is not soley limited to those suffering the physchological condition hypochondriasis.

IMHO someone who runs to the doctor with a cold - which most of us would shrug off and keep on going with, believing they have ebola, despite not having been to the congo river valley or other areas of infection - is worrying abnormally about there health and thus does meet the definition of hypochondriac.

btw there is no need to worry about boring the others, debates on WAB often go off topic, out into the wild blue yonder and back again

[catalaze]

What more could the good doctor say, Eeyore, to enlighten you? You aren't a doctor and yet, despite qualified advice, your traditional last word disregards the compassionate and well-informed information you have been given. I hope those who read your comment will go back and learn the facts of the situation.

Mocking anyone is cruel, but labelling a person with a name like hypochondriac could cause real and unnecessary suffering.

[nightshade]

The local news stated that walkers etc. around Bath should beware of an increase
in ticks due to the rise in numbers of deer (and foxes would their increase since the hunting ban have an effect?)

[Tinkerbell]

Good morning, littleb - I do hope your husband is on the mend.

Even the itching produced from a tick bite can be very annoying, but to develop other symptoms must have been alarming. It would appear that there are varying degrees of illness produced by these seemingly useless insects and more of us seem to be getting bitten.

To any one who has been bitten - ere on the side of caution and seek medical advice if you are worried.

Tink

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by catalaze

What more could the good doctor say, Eeyore, to enlighten you? You aren't a doctor and yet, despite qualified advice, your traditional last word disregards the compassionate and well-informed information you have been given. I hope those who read your comment will go back and learn the facts of the situation.

Mocking anyone is cruel, but labelling a person with a name like hypochondriac could cause real and unnecessary suffering.

I was very tempted to not dignify this with a reply - but since you seem determined to attack me in open forum I have reasonable cause to defind myself.

Firstly "my traditional last word" relates to one discussion i had witgh you in which 99% of the information (including that from vets and medics supported my point of view) its a little strange that you attack me for arguing with a doctor but are quite prepared to believe that your point of view on that thread is more likely to be correct than that of highly qualified veterinarians - i love consistency of logic

Secondly, this is a discussion forum , that is a place where people have discussions, despite your belief to the contrary I am not determined to have the last word, just to engage in debate which is one of the purposes of this board -and to paraphrase hob job both he and I love a good debate.

The facts of the situation are that hypochondriasis is as hobjob said a serious and rare serious condition, but as the OED demonstrates the term hypochondriac is used much more widely than its medical route. further i havent labled any specific person as a hypochondriac so serious and lasting harm is somewhat unlikely.

I'm not a doctor true , but i am someone with first hand experience both of contracting lymes disease and with the reluctance of some doctors to give antibiotics out - which reluctance is directly related to the unfounded demand that some patients make for antibiotics in a positions where they are neither needed or effective. Personally I find this demand to be irresponsible and I feel that I am entitled to express that postion here.

I dont mind if you or anyone else doesnt agree with me, I also dont particularly care whether you like me or not, but I would point out that the open forum is not the place to make personal attacks on other members. If you have a problem with me either make your point by pm or take it up with the mods

If my post was truly out of line I am sure that our excellent and hard working moderators would have said something, which they havent. nuff said.

[Turtletagger]

How surprised I am to hear that we have "ticks" here in Britain. I lived nearly fourty years living in Australia and ticks were a common hazard for bird watchers and campers. The most I discovered on my body after three days tramping and camping through the bush was the grand total of 156 seed ticks. One just dosen't know they are there till about the third day when they start to itch like mad. We called them the Kangaroo Tick because the poor old roos were covered with them, but also, the lizards that abound in that country, suffered badly with ticks in there ears and under the scales. After a hot shower, the first for three days, and with plenty of scrubbing many of the ticks fall of voluntarily, the rest have to be pulled out with tweezers, of corse there is always the ones who hang on and lose their heads and then you suffer for a couple of weeks with an angry sore at the spot. The worst places to find them are attached to your private parts or on your nipples and in your belly button: I Thank God I left that Country and could now enjoy bird watching in peace from the heat,flies and ticks. "Or so I thought till reading this thread"

[DL]

The Tick must be some way down the list of creatures you would leat like to encounter in Australia where as its probably top of the list in the UK

[aeshna]

Originally Posted by Turtletagger

The worst places to find them are attached to your private parts

Yeah, although I don't speak from personal experience a friend had one on his two veg, so to speak. I told him to try the lighted match technique for removal.




apologises if anyone is traumatised by this news, he was. LOL


cheers

aeshna

[nightshade]

Traumatised! I just sprayed the room with my G and T LOL

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by nightshade

Traumatised! I just sprayed the room with my G and T LOL

i bet that didnt do your computer any good hope youre all backed up this time

[celiar]

Hi all,

Having read most of this thread there does seem to be a lot of mis-information and lack of information about ticks and the diseases they carry, how to remove them SAFELY, just what the risk of infection IS if you are bitten by a tick and what treatment may be required. I hate to say it but a lot of the advice given out on how to remove ticks is quite scarey to say the least and the risk of infection minimised!

In order to dispel all the myths could I please direct you to a site that contains all the relevant up to date information on this subject. It's run by a UK based charity that was set up with just this purpose in mind. The subject is a serious one, and one which is growing rapidly in the UK.

http://www.bada-uk.org/home.html

This is from the Home Page:

>>BADA-UK is a registered charity formed by a group of people from different backgrounds brought together by the effects of Borreliosis / Lyme disease and other associated infections. Amongst our number are scientists, medics, teachers and other professionals who have agreed to use their skills to try to help address the increasing problem of ticks and tick-borne disease in the United Kingdom.<<

The site covers the whole subject accurately and in depth. There are also free downloadable information leaflets that have been produced with 'outdoor pursuits' in mind, plus ones for dog/cat and horse owners.

Celiar

[Hobjob]

Originally Posted by celiar

Hi all,
In order to dispel all the myths could I please direct you to a site that contains all the relevant up to date information on this subject. It's run by a UK based charity that was set up with just this purpose in mind. The subject is a serious one, and one which is growing rapidly in the UK.

http://www.bada-uk.org/home.html

The leaflet does seem good.

It is I think ultra cautious and back covering e.g.

1. Wearing gloves for removing ticks - probably is the counsel of perfection, but risk of infection via intact skin must be remote - but not proven to be nil I suspect.

2. Keeps saying go to your GP.
Waste of time in absence of signs of skin rash, symptoms of Lyme disease, or local infection with redness and pus (in UK in 06) as I have said before, as current advice is not to treat on basis of bite alone.

3. "Human Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis (HGE) has emerged as an important
human health concern since 1990 .......... Ehrlichiosis can also be fatal."
"Babesiosis is another common infection transmitted by a tick bite"
Errrr ................ whilst it may be important if you get it, as a GP I have never heard of these in UK, so a bit over stated methinks, and thus a bit alarmist. If it was an important human health concern it would be subject to information from the chief medical officer and a common topic in the medical weekly papers.

[celiar]

Hi Hobjob,

I have Lyme disease and co-infections as a result of a tick bite in the UK and so I believe that fore-warned is fore-armed. If I can prevent only one person from falling victim to the illness ticks can transmit then my comments will have been worth it. I certainly don't want to be alarmist. Not all tick bites carry infection but I believe that if we treated ALL ticks as potential infection carriers and developed a healthy respect for the diseases they can transmit then we would be doing ourselves a favour.

1. Wearing gloves for removing ticks - probably is the counsel of perfection, but risk of infection via intact skin must be remote - but not proven to be nil I suspect.

The recommendation of wearing gloves for tick removal is due to the fact that infection can enter through a small break in the skin, on a finger say, or in the case of intact skin can still be transmitted via mucous membranes (for instance if you removed a tick with your finger and then stuck the same finger up your nose....lol).

2. Keeps saying go to your GP.
Waste of time in absence of signs of skin rash, symptoms of Lyme disease, or local infection with redness and pus (in UK in 06) as I have said before, as current advice is not to treat on basis of bite alone.

3. "Human Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis (HGE) has emerged as an important
human health concern since 1990 .......... Ehrlichiosis can also be fatal."
"Babesiosis is another common infection transmitted by a tick bite"
Errrr ................ whilst it may be important if you get it, as a GP I have never heard of these in UK, so a bit over stated methinks, and thus a bit alarmist. If it was an important human health concern it would be subject to information from the chief medical officer and a common topic in the medical weekly papers.

The BADA site's message is that the best defense is knowledge, and they are merely covering all eventualities. I'm sure they do not wish to be alarmist either, and the main aim of the site focuses on prevention.

I just feel that it's far better to know your enemy.

[lynne108]

Originally Posted by littlelb

Does anyone know if ticks are prevelant in the Snowdonia area of Wales?

My husband's doctor thinks he may have Lymes disease and we were on holiday there a couple of weeks ago. If you do have any flu like symtons or a ring like rash after a tick bite ad if value your sanity(or that of your partner may I add), go to the docs to get it checked. My husband is a fit 35year old and I have never seen anyone look so bad.

I am very sorry to hear about your husband - I should imagine that anywhere where deer hang out ticks are likely to be.
Ho