Into the hills-alone

[Highland Damsel]

A couple of weeks ago the alert was raised when a guy local to me, someone i knew, failed to return from a day on the hill. Nobody knew where he was and they had to search for his car for some time before knowing where to start looking. His body was found three days later. He was a member of the mountain rescue team.

This should be a wake up call to all of us. I have already tightened up on my lone woring procedures, we should always let someone know where and when, it's an often repeated message, i know but...

[big bill]

I agree 100% with you followed the story on North Tonight News it beggers belief that people are still endangering themselves and the rescue services by going into the hills without letting people know were they will be and expected time of arrival back. To me it is pure negligence and something should be done to stop this irresponsible behavour weathe may be fine at car park but once into the mountains and hills it can change for the worse

[seamusagleann]

i must admit i don't use my lone worker back up as much as i should , mostly when i'm on an atv or using powered pruners. maybe this is the warning i need .they are really good ,one minute passed the appointed time and they're on the phone. the fact that the guy was in a mountain rescue team gets the message across even more.

[stripee]

Don't start out on a long walk at lunch time It will be dark before getting back. I agree tell someone where you are going. Take a mobile phone, although taking one without thinking about the weather or time of day before starting out is asking alot of rescue services

[Ian Gray]

all good sound advise, problem is most people think it won't happen to them.
I include myself if I'm totally honest. Is it time to introduce some kind of
personal insurance cover. If you don't pay before you pay the whole cost
of the rescue after. At least this way the rescue services would get close
to the money they need to operate. Most people who venture outdoors
don't mind donating to the rescue services anyway so I can't see a problem
with it. What do you think.

Ian

[big bill]

In my opinion there should be some sort of recompense for the emergency service in this type of call out as its just pure stupidity to venture into the hills and mountains ill equipped and ill prepared for the conditions.
The attitude it will not happen to me is asking for trouble theres always the first time make them pay for their neglect and having to rely on their survival to voluntry people putting their necks online to save your skin.

[shirl]

I have always done alot of mountain / moorland walking on my own, if I am staying in a hotel I always sign the book saying which route I am taking and roughly how long I will be. If I do full days walk from home, I always let someone know where I am going & send them a text when I am back. Makes such good sense as you just never know. You have to be sensible and take the right equipment too, I have always got the usual survival items in my rucksack.

Shirl

[agrumpycow]

Originally Posted by Ian Gray

all good sound advise...... Is it time to introduce some kind of
personal insurance cover. If you don't pay before you pay the whole cost
of the rescue after..... Most people who venture outdoors
don't mind donating to the rescue services anyway so I can't see a problem
with it. What do you think.
Ian

I think in theory that's a good, sound idea but, and I'll add here I know next to nothing about mountain/hill walking, etc., I just wonder where the parameters would be? What would be considered taking too much of a risk? Of course those who wear shorts and t-shirt, sandles, go out despite bad weather forecast, have no map and get lost, etc should pay but where would it end, would those who go fully prepared - map, compass, appropriate clothing and who make a genuine wrong turn or get caught in unexpected weather conditions have to pay the same?
I just think it could end up getting messy. I'd be interested in other's opinions?

[Ian Gray]

Originally Posted by agrumpycow

I think in theory that's a good, sound idea but, and I'll add here I know next to nothing about mountain/hill walking, etc., I just wonder where the parameters would be? What would be considered taking too much of a risk? Of course those who wear shorts and t-shirt, sandles, go out despite bad weather forecast, have no map and get lost, etc should pay but where would it end, would those who go fully prepared - map, compass, appropriate clothing and who make a genuine wrong turn or get caught in unexpected weather conditions have to pay the same?
I just think it could end up getting messy. I'd be interested in other's opinions?

people already spend a fortune on outdoor gear designed to protect them.
If there was an insurance policy you could take out before you venture out,
most people would class it as being an important part of that protection.
Those who don't can expect to pay after even if it's an unavoidable accident.

Ian

[richardkm]

As a former mountain rescue team member and search dog handler, I would hate to think that people were expected to pay anything towards the cost of rescue. Any rescue team member who complains about being called out for any reason whatsoever is not the right sort of person for the job - and I've met a few of them, ego trippers who are only there so they can boast about it in the pub!

My feeling about leaving details of where you are walking is alright up to a point, but it's not uncommon to find walkers getting into even more difficulty because they feel they MUST stick to their route rather than modify it in accordance with the prevailing conditions. It's essential to be flexible.

[Ian Gray]

thanks for posting Richard. Thou you didn't state why your against people paying you got me thinking why not. If someone gets into trouble and know they'd have to pay to get out of it they might be reluctant to call for help and get into more trouble. On this basis I think my idea is a non starter.

Ian.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by richardkm

As a former mountain rescue team member and search dog handler, I would hate to think that people were expected to pay anything towards the cost of rescue. Any rescue team member who complains about being called out for any reason whatsoever is not the right sort of person for the job - and I've met a few of them, ego trippers who are only there so they can boast about it in the pub!
.

As a former volunteer paramedic who used to work with the mountain rescue teams I'm not entirely sure i agree with this - I hear what you are saying about the walter mittys ive met a few of them too - but i'm sure most mountain rescue teams have a legitimate moan about the bimble brain who gets them called out by going ambling about unequiped and unaware - or even worse the sort of halfwit who calls the emergency service cos "they are a bit tired"

ive also worked with lifeboat crews in my time and i know they moan about unnecessary call outs - i'm sure its the same for every emergency service - the resources wasted searching for joe bloggs who couldnt be bothered to tell anyone where he was going could have been better spent helping someone who was genuinely in trouble ( I remember one call out where we spent 5 hours searching for some pillock in horrible weather conditions only to eventually discover that he was safe in a local pub , but had neglected to tell the people he'd left his estimated time of return with that he had come off the hill- idiots like him should definitely have to pay for the wasted time IMO). Thats not to say that you shouldnt go out to look for mr bloggs - of course you have a duty to respond to every call out - but i think its reasonable to expect people to pay for spurious call outs. After all the fire brigade do - I think its £400 per appliance if the call out isnt warranted.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Ian Gray

thanks for posting Richard. Thou you didn't state why your against people paying you got me thinking why not. If someone gets into trouble and know they'd have to pay to get out of it they might be reluctant to call for help and get into more trouble. On this basis I think my idea is a non starter.

Ian.

thats a good point - but if affordable call out insurance was available then this wouldnt be a factor , after all the average walker lays out high two figures on boots , 3 figures upwards on jackets etc so a few quid each year on some insurance shouldnt be a problem.

I'd also specify that payment is only required for spurious call outs or those where the walker hadnt followed even basic guidelines (such as leaving a route plan and an etr ) in these cases it often isnt the walker who calls out the MRT anyway

[outdoors]

when i go in to the hills i dont leave anything telling people were i am and how long i'm going too be,it gives any theif the perfect opertunity too rob your stuff from ur car at there leasure,because they know exactly were u are, and how long you plan to be away..that's my reason

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by outdoors

when i go in to the hills i dont leave anything telling people were i am and how long i'm going too be,it gives any theif the perfect opertunity too rob your stuff from ur car at there leasure,because they know exactly were u are, and how long you plan to be away..that's my reason

it also gives you the perfect opportunity to wind up dead from hypothermia , and "idiots" like me and richard to waste our entire day fruitlessly looking for you.

I wouldnt suggest leaving info in your car - better the leave the info with a family member, at the hotel/guest house/ campsite etc where you are staying, at a local pub , with the local mountain rescue post - or with another responsible person.

also your logic doesnt add up your car is at risk from theives anyway - they will just case it - watch for a bit to make sure you arent arround - then whack a rock through the window and have away anything you have been silly enough to leave in the vehicle, regardless of whether you have left a note.

[richardkm]

Originally Posted by eeyore

it also gives you the perfect opportunity to wind up dead from hypothermia , and "idiots" like me and richard to waste our entire day fruitlessly looking for you.

In all the years that I was involved, I never once complained about being called out. You have to balance the unfortunate with the incompetant. As far as I was concerned, being a mountain rescue team member was my way of putting something back into the hills in return for what I got out of them. I lost one wife as a consequence, but met the present Mrs Richardkm through the MR team. We did get our own back on one chap who, after spending lunch in the pub half way through his walk, decided later that afternoon that he couldn't go any further. It was December and the night of our team's annual Christmas dinner, so we were in a hurry to get the "casualty" off the hill. He was found, bagged then sledged off. Believe me, being sledged is no fun. My wife tells me that before my time in the team, they got rid of a prospective member who really wasn't up to the task, by using him as a casualty and sledging him. He never came back.

As for funding, rescue teams are always looking for money, but to formalise it by funding from insurance would bring in lots of problems. It's much better the way it is, as an autonomous service which sets its own, very high, standards and is run by mountaineers for mountaineers (well almost!).

It had its ups and downs - finding an injured chap, when we had been given a wrong location, after a night search of the Kinder Plareau in atrocious conditions, or finding alive an old chap who had wandered off from his home on a freezing evening, then there's those that we couldn't get to in time, or had already died and we were called to retrieve a body.

No matter what the outcome, ther was always the pride in a job well done.

Leave the MR service alone, it manages very well.

[nightshade]

The speed with which weather can close in even on a short clifftop walk
catches a lot of people out,we have shared clothing with muppets in jeans and teeshirts only, before now.
I personally think that leaving info with a Responsible Person is a must
you Cannot rely on a mobile phone also consider a GPS like the Garmin Trek
if you have an accident or come across one you can give an accurate location (assuming the mobilephone works)

[Lance Morgan]

Originally Posted by outdoors

when i go in to the hills i dont leave anything telling people were i am and how long i'm going too be,it gives any theif the perfect opertunity too rob your stuff from ur car at there leasure,because they know exactly were u are, and how long you plan to be away..that's my reason

Ah yes let me see.... Lose my life or lose my belongings hum

[ChrisJB]

I do tell folks where I am going, though alas, with most of them it's in one ear and out the other! Also, I have the silly habit of not sticking to my route when I get out into the wilds, ie if the weather bucks up, etc.
One thing is for sure. I aint shelling out any brass for insurance etc to go for a walk.

Regards, Chris

[outdoors]

Originally Posted by eeyore

it also gives you the perfect opportunity to wind up dead from hypothermia , and "idiots" like me and richard to waste our entire day fruitlessly looking for you.

I wouldnt suggest leaving info in your car - better the leave the info with a family member, at the hotel/guest house/ campsite etc where you are staying, at a local pub , with the local mountain rescue post - or with another responsible person.

also your logic doesnt add up your car is at risk from theives anyway - they will just case it - watch for a bit to make sure you arent arround - then whack a rock through the window and have away anything you have been silly enough to leave in the vehicle, regardless of whether you have left a note.

if you feel like an idiot why join in the first place,thats my opinion on the matter..

[Ian Gray]

Originally Posted by outdoors

if you feel like an idiot why join in the first place,thats my opinion on the matter..

I think Eeyore was simply stating that he feels like an idiot putting himself at risk to help someone who has little regard for there own safety. Which I think is a fair point. The MR do a fantastic job, and deserve the utmost respect regardless of what reasons individuals might have for doing it. We would be "lost" without them

[KIDSTYPIKE]

For many years I was a lone walker often with no set route. This for may people is the thrill of fell walking and I for one would not want that to change. The lone walker is or should be aware that his/her safety is there sole responsibility and I believe that most will take that on board.
The MRT's do a splendid job but must never be thought of as "back up". Maybe I was lucky, in that all those years I only had two "minor" accidents, a broken wrist twice in a month.
Regards,
Dave

[Ian Gray]

Originally Posted by KIDSTYPIKE

For many years I was a lone walker often with no set route. This for may people is the thrill of fell walking and I for one would not want that to change. The lone walker is or should be aware that his/her safety is there sole responsibility and I believe that most will take that on board.
The MRT's do a splendid job but must never be thought of as "back up". Maybe I was lucky, in that all those years I only had two "minor" accidents, a broken wrist twice in a month.
Regards,
Dave

like you Dave I'm also a lone walker. I also like the freedom of making it up as I along. I can be on a hike for several months at a time. I do my best to keep people informed of where I'm starting from and my planned destination. Also give a check in time, usually every two days. I wouldn't like to think that I couldn't turn east because I'd told somebody I was turning west, so I don't know the solution to this. The problem is, there's to many people who get into trouble through sheer stupidity. A couple of years ago, coming down of Ben Nevis I met two girls on the way up. They stopped me to ask which way it was to the top, they were dressed in tee-shirts, skirts and trainers. This was early April, about 10 inches of snow at the top with a howling gale. how do you put an end to this sort of behavior. I keep changing my mind on the insurance idea, it's a tricky one.

[outdoors]

i agree the m r t do an wonderfull job , i'm not desputing that ,one bit, i've got freinds in the m r t ,,i would absolutly love to do that job,first the love i've got for the mountains, and second it's great a training method for them..