Hugh's Chicken Run.............

[Stewy]

It's sure making a difference but for how long is anyones guess?

My brothers girlfriends mum was in waitrose today and they had no free range chicken left on the shelves so she bought a nice bit of beef instead, the thing is she wont eat beef but she bought it for the rest of the gang because she couldn't get a free range bird which is a result in my eyes.

[vole-woman]

Interestingly, I bought all my meat from an organic farm this week, and then did my dry goods shop at Lidl, cutting my usual big supermarket out of the loop altogether. I saved money! Plus Lidl do FairTrade stuff, which I didn't know. So I'll try and make this a regular thing from now on.

[The Black Rabbit]

Originally Posted by honeybee

Don't know if anybody saw in news today that HFW has been a bit under-fire for editing some info out of the prog, apparently inspectors failed his chicken sheds, I think the main reasons were poor ventilation and that the sheds were close to something or other and could attract vermin... the inspector said something like 'no self-respecting chicken farmer would allow this suffering'.
In HFW's deffence I think he has still shown pretty accurately what goes on with intensive chicken farming - and those reasons for failing don't really stand up when the sitution is one that has been created for telly, the suffering is still the same-and if chicken farmers think think HFW has given the industry a bad press then why don't a few of them let cameras into their sheds and show a documentary of a real farm? Because these things are kept behind closed doors.

I agree with you Honeybee. Absolutely.

I would like to add also, that on reflection, after watching the 3 programmes, we felt although it was/is an admirable effort from HFW, the typical sensational, oversentimental, cliched journalist in HFW started to rear its ugly head and potentially spoil a really valuable insight into intensive rearing. It was a very SLICK production. No doubt about that.

Don't get me wrong - we really enjoy watching HFW's programmes, and we're fans of him generally, but personally, we could do without the shots of him being filmed crying on television about the plight of the chickens, fat people saying they can't afford free-range prices, the "heavenly-lit" (very highly edited in terms of contrast etc... to add weight to the image) opening of the doors to allow the chickens out of the dark broiler house etc... etc...
Just a personal opinion mind. Others might find all that good television.

Overall, I'm glad he made the programme but it doesn't surprise me that he edited out the bad bits (as you've said, Honeybee) and really went to town, over-egging (sorry) the pulling on heartstrings.
Whatever works I suppose.

And I really, REALLY hope it has worked.
The realist (pessimist?) in me thinks it may just be short term though.
At least its something though, eh?

Doug

[Paul mabbott]

Originally Posted by vole-woman

Interestingly, I bought all my meat from an organic farm this week, and then did my dry goods shop at Lidl, cutting my usual big supermarket out of the loop altogether. I saved money! Plus Lidl do FairTrade stuff, which I didn't know. So I'll try and make this a regular thing from now on.

I don't think that there's a lot of difference between Lidl and the other big supermarkets - it's just a different way in working the internal economics of the company. Lidl (and the other German company that I've forgotten) trade on a very restricted range of goods but sell enormous numbers of them and can therefore sell at very low prices. The British and American chains sell very wide ranges of goods, not all of which are discounted.

Tesco etc sell quite a lot of fair-traded goods while some chains, especially Waitrose and the Co-op, sell fair-trade stuff wherever possible. The advantage of those two is that they're not feeding shareholders as well so they are giving fair shares to their employees - fair trade starts at home!

Glad to see that you're doing all the right things - it is possible to have a big effect as long as people are willing to shop around and put their money where their mouths are!

[coasty]

A few general comments here;

(1) I agree that not all butchers are brilliant but therewill always be good and bad, however I would suggest that its far better to use the butchers they at least know how to prepare the meat they sell. Also generally they know where its come from, I personally dont need to know that the butcher can identify which leg of daisy the fresian my shin of beef comes from. The supermarkets are only interested in shelf life and how the meat looks not how it tastes, They dont hang beef despite what they claim, and all the packaging is just done to improve shelf life and appearence, No its butchers for me.

(2) I am afraid that the program erred to much towards sentimentality and entertainment for me . I am sure HFW is a decent chap but as Doug said I didnt need to see him blithering.

(3) As for the comment about all the people who were saying they could not afford to eat free range were obese demonstates an unexpected ignorance on the research done into the links between people existing at or about the poverty line and also peoples education level and the frequency of obesity.

(4) As for the benefits of the show, well if it helps to make people think a bit more about what they shove down their throats well fair play.

(5) What has to happen to instigate change is for people to generally take an interest in food. If people knew what a good chicken tastes like they would not buy the muck that most supermarkets sell. Waitrose included. Go to any big french intermarche and buy one of their chickens, maybe it isnt organic but its very tasty. It wont be organic but by what im told over there they are locally sourced and much less intensively reared, and incidentally not much dearer than here. In the end the quality speaks for itself.

Unfortunately you only need to look in the supermarlet trollies of the average family around supermarkets to see frozen convenience and processed rubbish to realise why the supermarkets can sell what they can.

[juliejam]

Well out shopping over the week end I couldnt find any free range chickens left at all...noticed others were also looking for them ...when i asked a member of staff they said that they dont get that many in and that if i wanted to buy one i would have to shop earlier in the day... after popping in this morning I notice still plenty of the cheap buys available and that they hadnt unloaded this mornings delivery...thanx guys..

Julie

[hannahpanda]

Originally Posted by Xanadu2

Where did you get that dreadful information about the EU?

Jamie said it on Jamies Fowl Dinner, I think it is being changed in 2010 but dont quote me on that. He demonstrated it by placing chickens in a pen of the current size, i think it Jamie said it would be an extra 10 chickens in the pen's so around 100 but i cant remember what size the pen was.

[Susie]

Originally Posted by coasty

SNIP:

(3) As for the comment about all the people who were saying they could not afford to eat free range were obese demonstates an unexpected ignorance on the research done into the links between people existing at or about the poverty line and also peoples education level and the frequency of obesity.
.

Could you expand on this comment, Coasty? I would be interested to know what this research said and am also sadly ignorant on this subject.

Susie

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by The Black Rabbit

I agree with you Honeybee. Absolutely.

I would like to add also, that on reflection, after watching the 3 programmes, we felt although it was/is an admirable effort from HFW, the typical sensational, oversentimental, cliched journalist in HFW started to rear its ugly head and potentially spoil a really valuable insight into intensive rearing. It was a very SLICK production. No doubt about that.

Don't get me wrong - we really enjoy watching HFW's programmes, and we're fans of him generally, but personally, we could do without the shots of him being filmed crying on television about the plight of the chickens, fat people saying they can't afford free-range prices, the "heavenly-lit" (very highly edited in terms of contrast etc... to add weight to the image) opening of the doors to allow the chickens out of the dark broiler house etc... etc...
Just a personal opinion mind. Others might find all that good television.

Overall, I'm glad he made the programme but it doesn't surprise me that he edited out the bad bits (as you've said, Honeybee) and really went to town, over-egging (sorry) the pulling on heartstrings.
Whatever works I suppose.

And I really, REALLY hope it has worked.
The realist (pessimist?) in me thinks it may just be short term though.
At least its something though, eh?

Doug

I've only seen clips and read up about the progs and not watched all of it so i havn't seen the blubbing ... just heard about it so not sure what to make of it all but I think most of us agree he's done a good job. Got his point accross at least and he's passionate about it.

I'm sure what we're seeing now with free range and organic meat being bought more wont last forever, hopefully a proportion of people have changed their ways for good. People can only change for the better by being educated and informed.
Think when Delia did some recipe and some ingredient sold out everywhere for a while, the novelty wore off after a couple of weeks but maybe a few people learnt to cook in the process.
I think it's time now for the big players who are capable of influencing consumers to take a stand...the supermarkets.

[coasty]

Originally Posted by Susie

Could you expand on this comment, Coasty? I would be interested to know what this research said and am also sadly ignorant on this subject.

Susie

I will gladly expand there is widespread evidence that in the western world there is a correlation between people living on or below the poverty line. ( the modern definition not what poverty meant 150 years ago) and a population that is obese. There is very extensive research on the USA at the moment as they have a far greater problem than the UK does.

Perhaps my use of the word ignorent was a little strong for the forum as I generally have the greatest of respect for the other users and I certainly meant no disrespect however the comment was stereotyping. Which I disagree with.

Some links to research you may find interesting are:

Poverty and obesity

UK: obesity - The Poverty Site

BBC NEWS | Business | The changing face of poverty

The above came from the first page of a google query there is lots of it to be read...

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I must admit this crossed my mind too.....

That cause they live on chips..Potatoes are cheap..

[The Black Rabbit]

Very interesting link Andy. I do mean that.
I assume you were having a pop at my comment regarding "many" (your word "all" was never used by me), "people shown on television..."

I've got to admit, I was completely ignorant about there being a link between poverty and obesity.
The really poor people that I've known were certainly nowhere near obese...
Then again, statisticians are very good at keeping themselves in a job.

So are we to listen to yet another reason behind the obesity epidemic?
If its not that "I'm big-boned", or its not "my glands you know", then its the fact that "I'm on the poverty line", or "its the governments fault". Oh dear oh dear.
It is in no way is the obese persons fault is it?
Wow.


I must work on my political correctness....

Doug

[coasty]

Originally Posted by The Black Rabbit

It is in no way is the obese persons fault is it?
Wow.


I must work on my political correctness....

Doug

Hello Doug,,, I can assure you I am not having a pop at anyone however there is strong evidence linking both social group and income level to obesity level. Incidentally I also struggle with the use of the word poverty these days.

The fact remains however that you can not simply make comments like "fat people saying they can't afford free-range prices" and "I often find it amusing / bemusing / dismaying though, when many of the people shown on television who claim this, seem very often to be clinically obese"..Without such comments been challenged .
.

Surprising really as your discussions usually are so well balanced. . Oh yes and Doug and everyone a happy new year...

[The Black Rabbit]

Happy new year Andy.

[honeybee]

not bein funny or nuffin but a lot of the people i see / know who are on a fairly low income are often overweight and a lot of them find money for booze and fags too ... that's another kettle of fish I spose. The nation is getting fatter though, rich and poor.
I'd say people who really are pennyless, more so those in developing countries are obviously the opposite of obese.

[Paul mabbott]

Yes but culture and tradition come into it. Don't forget the Italian dichotomy. In southern Italy where there is most poverty people are relatively skinny and healthy whereas in the north where people are much better off obesity and heart disease are more of a problem.

In this case the health differences are almost entirely due to diet. In the south meals are largely based on wheat (pasta), olive oil and tomatoes whereas in the north the diet has much more meat and dairy products.

There's other evidence that where MacDonalds move in obesity and heart disease follow it: the reason is not entirely due to the fatty, stodgy nature of their products but because it becomes almost the item in the diet of people who are not too well off - particularly young people.

Originally Posted by coasty

I will gladly expand there is widespread evidence that in the western world there is a correlation between people living on or below the poverty line. ( the modern definition not what poverty meant 150 years ago) and a population that is obese. There is very extensive research on the USA at the moment as they have a far greater problem than the UK does.

[Susie]

Thank you for the links, Coasty, they were very interesting.

I believe that the link between poverty and obesity is down more to a state of mind than actual lack of funds (in the UK) unless the person does not have access to a kitchen, such as someone living in B& B accommodation or homeless, but I will leave my thoughts there as this probably isn't the place to go into this.

[The Black Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Susie

Thank you for the links, Coasty, they were very interesting.

I believe that the link between poverty and obesity is down more to a state of mind than actual lack of funds (in the UK) unless the person does not have access to a kitchen, such as someone living in B& B accommodation or homeless, but I will leave my thoughts there as this probably isn't the place to go into this.

Socio-economic statistics....
Hmmmm..... tasty!

[coasty]

Originally Posted by Susie

Thank you for the links, Coasty, they were very interesting.

I believe that the link between poverty and obesity is down more to a state of mind than actual lack of funds (in the UK) unless the person does not have access to a kitchen, such as someone living in B& B accommodation or homeless, but I will leave my thoughts there as this probably isn't the place to go into this.

That is what a lot of the statistics aim to demonstrate...

[Susie]

Is it? I got the impression that the statistics implied that if more money was chucked at the poor then the problem would be solved but I am quite willing to believe that I am mistaken.

[hammock monkey]

Originally Posted by stripee

Maybe, but if you add up all those 3 pences....in my extended family there are chicken farmers in the north. They are rich from battery chicken production. They even like wildlife. But as far as they are concerned chickens = money. I don't think they think of chickens as creatures at all.

i would never blame the farmers themselves unless they were personally out of oreder in terms of day to day cruelty - they are producing what consumers ask for i.e never mind the quality, feel the width.

the main point for them is that if they reared free range etc they could actually make more money or the same perhaps but in a way that they would much prefer. Every farmer i know or have known hates to think of animals treated badly.
eat less meat but eat better meat when you do...i just dont see the problem in that

[stripee]

Originally Posted by hammock monkey

i would never blame the farmers themselves unless they were personally out of oreder in terms of day to day cruelty - they are producing what consumers ask for i.e never mind the quality, feel the width.

the main point for them is that if they reared free range etc they could actually make more money or the same perhaps but in a way that they would much prefer. Every farmer i know or have known hates to think of animals treated badly.
eat less meat but eat better meat when you do...i just dont see the problem in that

It's the system, I agree. And few farmers are cruel or unkind, but it is the mind set. The relatives are efficient within the perimeters of battery chicken farming, obviously they don't want to lose chickens. They do a little free range and barn, but only as a profitable add on, and not what I would call free range. I heard one on the radio last week complaining about the phasing out of the A4 spacing for each chicken and the financial impacts.

The poor diet of many people with the least money is a time bomb for their health, and these problems can be seen in their 40s or younger. Everyone should have the chance to eat proper food. I think in schools some cooking lessons and some dietary advice! Fast food can be a banana, or some nuts. Meals can be nutritious and not expensive. Targeting advertising towards little kids starts off the whole slippery road towards the big Macs and the KFCs, and the crisps, anyone with kids will know the pressure.
Maybe Hugh and Jamie will at least inform and then people can make up their minds and demand for better chicken welfare will pay off both for the consumer and for farmers. It's the fast food companies that need to see their profits drop!