WildWood make-up.

[STYRBJORN]

Although this is relevant to Deb London's post about reversion to forest, I'm looking back rather than ahead. I don't want to incur Gill Catton's wrath, so herewith a separate thread.

I read recently that the belief that the WildWood, the primeval forest that covered lowland England and Wales before the arrival of H.sap, was mostly comprised of oak trees, is incorrect. Estimates of the relative populations of trees are made by counting quantities of pollen types, coupled with radio-dating, found in ancient peat bogs. There is at least 10 times as much oak pollen as the next most common, the small-leaved lime, Tilia cordata. Simples eh?

BEWARE THE UNCONTROLLED VARIABLE! Somebody finally thought to check the amount of pollen produced by individual trees. Oaks are wind fertilised and need to produce vast amounts of pollen so that there is a chance of some it reaching another tree. Lime are insect fertilised, and only need a small amount of pollen. Correcting for that the ratio was c 10 lime to 1 oak. Robin Hood eat yer heart out.

Go to the Independent on line, and put "lime trees" in the search box at the top of the first page for the article.

Ric

[artdemole]

Hooray for the lime tree.To much notice is made on the English oaks.Naturalised in Europe.

[Paul mabbott]

This isn't really new. There is a system of categorising habitats by their dominant trees &c and giving them Latin names - just to confuse us. The name for the type of SE England is Tilio-carpinetum - the dominant trees being lime and hornbeam. Except in Lincolnshire, small-leaved lime has been largely eliminated by humans whereas oak and hornbeam were encouraged (beech in some areas, of course) thus accounting for the dominant tree species of contemporary woods.

I'm not too sure that it's helpful to talk about 'the Wildwood' as if it were something that would have remained eternally without human intervention. Succession of trees is constant - the first ones after the glaciation were birch, then pine before these others even established!.

Originally Posted by STYRBJORN

I read recently that the belief that the WildWood, the primeval forest that covered lowland England and Wales before the arrival of H.sap, was mostly comprised of oak trees, is incorrect. Estimates of the relative populations of trees are made by counting quantities of pollen types, coupled with radio-dating, found in ancient peat bogs. There is at least 10 times as much oak pollen as the next most common, the small-leaved lime, Tilia cordata. Simples eh?

BEWARE THE UNCONTROLLED VARIABLE! Somebody finally thought to check the amount of pollen produced by individual trees. Oaks are wind fertilised and need to produce vast amounts of pollen so that there is a chance of some it reaching another tree. Lime are insect fertilised, and only need a small amount of pollen. Correcting for that the ratio was c 10 lime to 1 oak. Robin Hood eat yer heart out.

Go to the Independent on line, and put "lime trees" in the search box at the top of the first page for the article.

Ric

[STYRBJORN]

Thanks for that Paul. Apparently lime likes soils that are well suited for agriculture, and so went quite quickly. Personally, I agree about "The WildWood." Too reminiscent of Graham and Tolkien. More chance of meeting a big black cat than Tom Bombadil.

Ric

[Deb London]

Heck, my 'ears' are burning.

The prevalence of lime in lowland England is something that I never realised until I read around. My conviction was so strong that scrutinized Rackham's 'wildwood make-up' map for ages looking for the misprint. My Sunday boss was most impressed when I knew a little about the tree and its history (and I was most impressed that he'd planted some a few years ago ). What I'm trying to say is that it's not common knowledge at all.

[STYRBJORN]

Originally Posted by Deb London

Heck, my 'ears' are burning.

The prevalence of lime in lowland England is something that I never realised until I read around. My conviction was so strong that scrutinized Rackham's 'wildwood make-up' map for ages looking for the misprint. My Sunday boss was most impressed when I knew a little about the tree and its history (and I was most impressed that he'd planted some a few years ago ). What I'm trying to say is that it's not common knowledge at all.

As Paul says, it is well known that lime was once more prevalent than now, but the relative dominance of lime has only recently become clear. The true position was explained to reporter Michael McCarthy by Oliver Rackham. Well worth looking up the article.

Ric

[STYRBJORN]

It only occurred to me today that the Americans who called English sailors "Limeys" spoke truer than they knew!

Ric

[Dorts]

Ric. Small-leaved Lime - Tilia cordata, is an interesting species. Although it is well scattered, but scarce in England, it is virtually absent from Kent, Devon, Cornwall and Somerset. Disappearing from all but Southern Scotland and all but absent from Ireland.

So the question is, if it was supposedly so common and the main constituant of this 'wild-wood' , where has it all gone? Why is there none in Kent? Why are other species such as Oak, Ash, Elm (until very recently), Beech etc. still so common but not T. cordata?

The so-called 'Wild wood' covering Britain from one end to the other, didn't really last all that long.
As the ice receded, (about 8,000 years ago), suitable species such as Juniper, Birch, Dwarf Willow, Rowan etc. started to move Northwards, followed later by Hazel, Alder, Oak, Elm and Small-leaved Lime and Scot's Pine in the North, (around 6,000 years ago).
It has been said that by 4,000 years ago virtually every tree in Britain had been felled, and that since then none of the 'true wild wood' was left. That says that the felling of trees started almost a soon as they were becoming established.

Beech is always supposed to be the last species to make it before the channel formed, and it is still here doing well, but what happened to all that Small-leaved Lime?!!
Answers on a postcard.

[STYRBJORN]

Dorts -

One possible explanation is also the simplest. (Good old William of Ockham said it first. . . ). If lime grows well on land which is good for crops then it will be the first species of tree to be intensively cleared. Most of the English counties you cite are, or until recently were, very much crop growing areas. Also, lime has always been a lowland tree, so you would expect to see less of it as you move North.

Then there is the question of pollination, coupled with population density. As I said, oak is wind pollinated. In an area where lime is already common, this gives the insect pollinated lime a clear advantage. However, if lime trees are sparsely strewn on the landscape, the advantage will lie with the oak, and other wind pollinated spp such as birch, the hay fever agent supreme. Pollinating insects have a limited range, so wind pollinators with vast amounts of pollen will have more chance of finding another tree.

Actually, the more I think about this, the more my brain hurts. Prevailing winds . . . pollinating insect populations . . . isolated local populations . . . U - u - r - r - gh. And I thought Wittgenstein was difficult

Ric

[Hobjob]

Another thought:

Lime is not very good for building and splits easily.

Thus not a such a useful tree so culled in ancient woods which were managed quite intensively.