Why Lots of Elm Tree Seeds?

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

"Every five years or so" to be taken as a generalisation because it's not possible to be exact. Cyclical meaning reoccuring at regular intervals, however many years apart.

It is the regular that I don't agree with sometimes it may be a gap of one year sometimes seven, to me that is closer to random not cyclical.

Originally Posted by The Woodman

I am at odds with your comment that different trees do not share mast years though unless we're at a misunderstanding of the word "share". It's clear to me that the species I've looked at (and mentioned earlier) in the last couple of days have very heavy crops whilst others haven't. I'm looking at a Whitebeam, Hawthorn and Rowan at this moment and neither have anything like heavy crops or even regular crops.

The Sycamore and Ash (plus the conifer) seen earlier today, all having heavy crops, must be sharing a mast year as they are all in a similar fruiting condition. I cannot see how they are not sharing it.

Agreed I was being lazy, what I meant was that trees do not necessarily share mast years because they flower at different times and the conditions may not be ideal when they flower. Interestingly Ash and Sycamore have fairly similar flowering times (although Sycamore is not necessarily wind-pollinated) although Elm certainly flowers earlier. Whitebeam, Hawthorn and Rowan flower later and are not wind-pollinated to any degree.

Originally Posted by The Woodman

Granted, all trees produce fruit every year to some degree and it just so happens that the fruit of the Beech is referred to as "mast" and the contents of the mast is the Beech nut. They do fruit every year but there will be one year when the crop exceeds that of the previous four, five or six years.

When you say that you've seen consecutive years of beech mast, do you mean a bumper mast crop?

Again lazy writing I should have said consecutive mast years.

I am not saying that this is the only factor certainly spring and summer conditions always affect fruit production but I do not believe that there is any good evidence for some inbuilt clock controlling fruiting as is often suggested.

[The Woodman]

I take your point about random / cyclical ceterach, agreeing that I've never seen any evidence that suggests any inbuilt clock, but there again I've never looked for it since being told about it as a student many years ago and accepting what might now be termed as misinformation.

Your comments have given me something to think about and I cannot find much about it in the literature that I have and will have to dig deep in t'internet.

Appreciate your posts.

[RobSutton]

I seem to remember reading somewhere that species like Beech and Oak don't have the same masting strategy in all of their range. Further south and east into Europe they fruit much more consistently than they do with us. I'm not sure whether that's true, it's a vague memory of having read something, perhaps someone can confirm this?

With things like Hawthorn (and quite a lot of fruit trees) there is a tendency for heavy flowering/fruiting in alternate years, a good cropping year is followed by a largely barren year. Interestingly the size of sap-sucking insect such as Psyllids feeding on the trees shows a similar pattern, they are measurably bigger in years when when the tree is flowering than in years when they are not - more nutrients need to be transported to the developing flowers and fruits which therefore allows them to grow bigger.

[ceterach]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

I take your point about random / cyclical ceterach, agreeing that I've never seen any evidence that suggests any inbuilt clock, but there again I've never looked for it since being told about it as a student many years ago and accepting what might now be termed as misinformation.

Your comments have given me something to think about and I cannot find much about it in the literature that I have and will have to dig deep in t'internet.

Appreciate your posts.

I know where you are coming from! Unfortunately I have reached the age where I realise most dogma is wrong but everyone tells me that is because I am just a cynical old git! Probably both are true

[The Woodman]

You are right to question dogma, it's all too easy to accept and live with what one is told when younger. As you get older and gain more experience and knowledge, an active and intelligent mind can challenge dogma.

From what you say, I doubt very much if it's anything to do with being a c.o.g.!

Rob, I have no idea about masting in Europe - sorry - only wish I could rise to this challenge! I agree with your comments on size of sap suckers, but that's only after you pointed it out. Numbers seem to higher as well. I havn't seen a shield bug on my Hawthorn this year but tomorrow I'm going to have a good look!

My apologies to the OP, but I have found this very interesting.

[Seefeld]

Thank you all for your possible answers. My elms are weeping elms , related to Wych elms and do not flower. the seeds appear first and then the leaves. Birds like greenfinches, chaffinches , goldfinches, linnets and even ocasionally goldcrests all feed on the seeds.

[batuhan]

Hi All,
anybody has any pictures as european goldfinches feeding in elm tree ?

thank you in advance

batuhan

[The Woodman]

Hi batuhan

What do you feed your goldfinches on?

Have you elms in Turkey?

[Spectrum]

Thanks for the really interesting thread. Like you, I have always known about mast years, but not thought very deeply about it- just accepting that it happens. You have all put forward interesting suggestions and I will now observe it in more detail, linking in the local weather conditions for growth and pollination, along with other observations. Thank you!