|
 | | 
07-11-2006, 07:41 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,871
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
The trouble with growing your own apple trees is that it is such a long term investment.
I planted an apple tree called Sunset at my last house and it was just starting to have a few decent fruits on it by the time I moved. It was very tasty. I've got the same problem again this time round, the Spartan has done particularly well and now I have to leave it! I just hope the new buyers don't dig all my trees up and put down decking. 
If I am buying apples from the shops I always try to buy British and usually go for a Coxs or if I can't get that then a Braeburn, which generally comes from New Zealand.
__________________
It's pure fiction. |
07-11-2006, 08:05 AM
|  | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I grow cordons (espalier similar) - planted three year striplings gave apples after another three years. This is the fourth year and got a really good crop. Planted them down one side of the garden (to replace a leylandii hedge!) so they don't take up much space.
I think that's what we should do with everything, buy British where available, then west European, then Mediterranean or east European &c - to avoid travel miles. Quote: |
Originally Posted by Susie The trouble with growing your own apple trees is that it is such a long term investment.
If I am buying apples from the shops I always try to buy British and usually go for a Coxs or if I can't get that then a Braeburn, which generally comes from New Zealand. | |
07-11-2006, 11:39 AM
|  | Frozen | | Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.E. Lincolnshire
Posts: 4,130
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Just as a side point, how do we define a British apple (without getting too political!)? I mean I believe most of the varieties we grow, originally came from Hungary/Romania regions, and were first brought into this country in Henry VIII's time? I think Crab apples are the only ones we can call true native - though I could be wrong there!
This all maybe beside the point as regard growing 'British' for the obvious reasons: supporing local economy and travel miles etc, but can anyone clarify origins etc? |
07-11-2006, 10:45 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 409
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Alan Just as a side point, how do we define a British apple (without getting too political!)? I mean I believe most of the varieties we grow, originally came from Hungary/Romania regions, and were first brought into this country in Henry VIII's time? I think Crab apples are the only ones we can call true native - though I could be wrong there!
This all maybe beside the point as regard growing 'British' for the obvious reasons: supporing local economy and travel miles etc, but can anyone clarify origins etc? | First point here is that I think we do not need to be afraid of saying "English" and not "British". The best varieties do not grow well here in Yorkshire, let alone Scotland and I am not aware of any Irish or Welsh apples (and if they exist, it is their fault that I am not aware, not mine)
And though I recognise that Alan has a valid point to which I do not know the real answer, nevertheless I can give a subjective answer - I define an English apple by virtue of the fact that of the most flavoured varieties there is none from any other source which can match the English-grown ones for flavour and texture. It is true that there are acceptable ones from other countries which can fill gaps between our seasons but none can touch our best in their season. If this is true, there must be a reason.
On the face of it this is, I must admit, at variance with what I know to be a fact where tomatoes are concerned and assume to be so for other fruits and vegetables - which is that the flavour is in the variety and not in the culture. In other words it should make no difference where a given variety is grown. But I do not believe that, for example, the French Golden Delicious is the same variety as our Golden Delicious. I think that our best varieties have not been exported and are uniquely English. This has been stated to me as a positive truth at some time in the distant past but unfortunately I can not remember the source.
As regards the possibility of their having been brought from Hungary/etc, I do not know the facts about this, but it seems to me to be very likely that though this might be the origin of the parents of our established varieties, at least some of the latter have been discovered as random seedlings. This has certainly been described to me in my schooldays as the origin of Cox's Orange Pippin. (Which, as I have already mentioned, rattles when shaken if it is genuine - and many of them in the supermarkets labelled "Cox's Apples" do not rattle)  |
07-11-2006, 11:32 PM
|  | Knight Grand Cross of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Nottingham
Posts: 12,177
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I'm an apple fanatic, I find supermarket apples to be very poor quality. For a start I refuse to buy anything unless it's grown in this Country, which at time limits the choice considerably.
I'm convinced that the way supermarkets chill store their apples change the texture and quality of the flesh. There are a couples of small Orchards nearby where I can get the real old types, and once you've tasted a REAL cox, the supermarket pathetic variation just doesn't stand up to the comparison.
This is my favourite time of the year especially as this years harvest has been exceptionally good. |
08-11-2006, 12:25 AM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Peoples Democratic Republic of South Cheshire
Posts: 1,248
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Airehead First point here is that I think we do not need to be afraid of saying "English" and not "British". The best varieties do not grow well here in Yorkshire, let alone Scotland and I am not aware of any Irish or Welsh apples (and if they exist, it is their fault that I am not aware, not mine) | I understand that some of the recently rediscovered "lost" varieties have been found on the Welsh side of the Herefordshire/Radnorshire border ..... and there is at least one Irish Cider presumably made with Irish Apples. |
08-11-2006, 09:36 AM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Peoples Democratic Republic of South Cheshire
Posts: 1,248
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Quote: |
Originally Posted by speckled wood I understand that some of the recently rediscovered "lost" varieties have been found on the Welsh side of the Herefordshire/Radnorshire border ..... and there is at least one Irish Cider presumably made with Irish Apples. | From a friend in Cymru
Welsh apples .... may have been St Cecilias, I seem to remember. And
there's Bakers Delicious - they're Welsh |
08-11-2006, 09:54 AM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Well .... I'm more than content with my Yorkshire grown apples. I think that the old varieties have been selected for localities much smaller than 'England, Wales, Yorkshire' - they're the best ones for a particular local climate and soil conditions.
It's debatable which is 'best' - I prefer russets but everyone else has their own favourite - no such thing as 'best' just what you prefer: the important thing is that there should be a variety of varieties!
Incidentally, I've posted a list of trees which are 'best' for wildlife: http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/fo...-wildlife.html
Quite surprising how highly ranked apples and pears are. Quote: |
Originally Posted by Airehead The best varieties do not grow well here in Yorkshire, let alone Scotland and I am not aware of any Irish or Welsh apples (and if they exist, it is their fault that I am not aware, not mine)
And though I recognise that Alan has a valid point to which I do not know the real answer, nevertheless I can give a subjective answer - I define an English apple by virtue of the fact that of the most flavoured varieties there is none from any other source which can match the English-grown ones for flavour and texture. It is true that there are acceptable ones from other countries which can fill gaps between our seasons but none can touch our best in their season. If this is true, there must be a reason. | |
08-11-2006, 10:13 AM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I've eaten perfectly good apples grown locally over north-west Europe. The point is that they are grown for the locality.
I must disagree about tomatoes. There was nothing like eating a cherry tomato from my own plot after it had ripened in the sun ... but neither is there anything as good as eating sun-ripened toms straight off the vine in Greece or Italy.
The problem here is that large commercial tomato growers have their plants under shelter, well-irrigated and dosed with chemicals then treated in other ways to transport and ripen them at the 'correct' time.
But it all comes back down to growing and eating locally .... Quote: |
Originally Posted by Airehead .............nevertheless I can give a subjective answer - I define an English apple by virtue of the fact that of the most flavoured varieties there is none from any other source which can match the English-grown ones for flavour and texture. It is true that there are acceptable ones from other countries which can fill gaps between our seasons but none can touch our best in their season. If this is true, there must be a reason.
On the face of it this is, I must admit, at variance with what I know to be a fact where tomatoes are concerned and assume to be so for other fruits and vegetables - which is that the flavour is in the variety and not in the culture. In other words it should make no difference where a given variety is grown. But I do not believe that, for example, the French Golden Delicious is the same variety as our Golden Delicious. I think that our best varieties have not been exported and are uniquely English. This has been stated to me as a positive truth at some time in the distant past but unfortunately I can not remember the source.
As regards the possibility of their having been brought from Hungary/etc, I do not know the facts about this, but it seems to me to be very likely that though this might be the origin of the parents of our established varieties, at least some of the latter have been discovered as random seedlings. This has certainly been described to me in my schooldays as the origin of Cox's Orange Pippin. (Which, as I have already mentioned, rattles when shaken if it is genuine - and many of them in the supermarkets labelled "Cox's Apples" do not rattle) | |
08-11-2006, 01:40 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 409
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul mabbott I must disagree about tomatoes. There was nothing like eating a cherry tomato from my own plot after it had ripened in the sun ... | Maybe I should not have mentioned tomatoes here. However, Paul, if you think the culture has anything to do with it, I challenge you to grow a Moneymaker that has any worthwhile flavour.
I now only grow Gardeners' Delight. It took me years to find that only the variety matters, after sampling a tomato which for the first time in my life I could actually taste, when I left school and started work in a semi-rural locality.
Back to apples - of course, I agree that 'best' is down to individual taste but I am sure you will not deny that a fairly clear division could be made between 'good' and 'bad', and if so then there must be by some definition a 'best' and a 'worst'. On the other hand, I can hardly believe that anyone actually likes those bags of sawdust which sometimes turn up on the shelves.
I agree absolutely that the variety must be chosen for the locality - and this is the point, that the south of England seems to be the best locality for the best flavoured apples. I don't enjoy this, being in Yorkshire where Cox's don't succeed, but I do believe that the evidence establishes the fact.
And I would like to affirm that this is a matter of logic, not of misplaced patriotism. After all, I would not suggest that the best pomegranates are English. |
08-11-2006, 02:09 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Oh quite - I was never tempted to change from Gardener's Delight - but in Greece I'd go fo a Marmande!
How long will it be before pomegranates fruit in UK? Or are they already doing so? Quote: |
Originally Posted by Airehead Maybe I should not have mentioned tomatoes here. However, Paul, if you think the culture has anything to do with it, I challenge you to grow a Moneymaker that has any worthwhile flavour.
I now only grow Gardeners' Delight. It took me years to find that only the variety matters, after sampling a tomato which for the first time in my life I could actually taste, when I left school and started work in a semi-rural locality.
And I would like to affirm that this is a matter of logic, not of misplaced patriotism. After all, I would not suggest that the best pomegranates are English. | |
08-11-2006, 02:25 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Gloucestershire
Posts: 1,373
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Didn't a very old grapefruit tree produce it's first fruit this year? Figs do very well in Gloucester and outdoor olives have produced a lot of fruit. That mini-heatwave probably brought them on. |
08-11-2006, 03:50 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,871
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I think I read recently that pomegranates do now fruit in the UK. I don't know how tasty they would be though.
I know my fig tree (Brown Turkey) does splendidly well and had an excellent crop for a young tree this year. The fruit are wonderfully sweet and far nicer than anything I could buy in the shops. 
__________________
It's pure fiction. |
08-11-2006, 04:14 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I don't know how tasty they ever are! Pretty useless fruit but beautiful trees.
Yes, figs growing nicely in this country - even along the Don in Sheffield although I'm not sure if they produce fruit. Quote: |
Originally Posted by Susie I think I read recently that pomegranates do now fruit in the UK. I don't know how tasty they would be though.
I know my fig tree (Brown Turkey) does splendidly well and had an excellent crop for a young tree this year. The fruit are wonderfully sweet and far nicer than anything I could buy in the shops. | |
08-11-2006, 05:30 PM
|  | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,815
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Brown Turkey Figs split,Drizzled with Honey(local)and a nice dab of cream mmmmm!
__________________
You cannot maintain an ecology, if you lose any of the pieces. |
08-11-2006, 06:30 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,815
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Apple Variety Descriptions (A-D) Apple Variety Descriptions (M-R)
I came across this list describing apples and some of their origins,not strictly english apples
but interesting,one variety was found by an old grave!
__________________
You cannot maintain an ecology, if you lose any of the pieces. |
08-11-2006, 07:58 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: East Kent
Posts: 1,529
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Or fresh figs with a good runny brie, eaten in the sunshine! Mmmm! |
08-11-2006, 08:26 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,871
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Mmmm mmm mmmmmm! You are making me hungry. As much as I love figs though they can't beat a nice crisp apple, a piece of cheese and a lump of crusty bread.
__________________
It's pure fiction. |
08-11-2006, 10:22 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 409
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Nightshade, that is a very interesting site. I am very pleased to see that it confirms my supposition that many varieties were 'discovered' as accidental seedlings. It bugs me that if you want to see a well-researched web site about almost anything you have to look to America even to find out about things English. I tried a couple of years ago to find a site catering for English apples. I found a grower's site which promised email correspondence but they never replied to me. |
09-11-2006, 10:06 AM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Apples - specialist information about apple flavours, varieties, ancestry, and descriptions - OrangePippin.com is quite good and gives links to many other interesting sites such as English Apples,National Fruit Collection,Brogdale,DIVERSITY WEBSITE,graft,grafting,learning Quote: |
Originally Posted by Airehead .......have to look to America even to find out about things English. I tried a couple of years ago to find a site catering for English apples. I found a grower's site which promised email correspondence but they never replied to me. | |
09-11-2006, 07:36 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,815
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Apples are a lot more interesting than I had thought,no one seems to be as interested in pears
__________________
You cannot maintain an ecology, if you lose any of the pieces. |
09-11-2006, 07:37 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: West Sussex
Posts: 1,871
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
I like a nice pear ... 
__________________
It's pure fiction. |
10-11-2006, 10:19 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 409
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Quote: |
Originally Posted by nightshade Apples are a lot more interesting than I had thought,no one seems to be as interested in pears | Bought some English-grown Comice pears today. Haven't tried them yet because they are hard. I must admit I have never got to know pears except to form the impression that English ones are not particularly good. If anyone disagrees, please speak now.
I have seen new season Russett apples in both Sainsbury and Morrison supermarkets recently. |
11-11-2006, 10:30 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 409
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Thank you Paul for that orangepippin.com link It is a very informative and responsive site and I am relieved to find my cynical views of supermarket labelling of apples is exonerated. |
12-11-2006, 10:23 AM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: N.E.SOMERSET
Posts: 6,815
| | | Re: Apples and Pears
Along the local bypass there are several apple trees which have distinctive shapes,and a number of heavily laden pear trees there are always Fox and Badger carcases nearby so the fruit must be attractive.I have been unable to find pictures of old apples on the net so far
Apple trees have always been important | |
