Belittle Britain

[chunkychambers]

Could you use your wit and vision to scribe something nearer the truth? To include our major immigration problems, our soldiers being killed in foriegn lands for no good reason, our roads congested to breaking point, our moraly corrupt goverment, an avalanche of litter and dogs mess in our countryside, the uncontrolable rise in crime particularly vicious assaults, how drugs have infiltrated our lives to such an extent now that they can be purchased at school.

I'm not Mr Angry, I just wish we could address these problems for the love of England and its people.
Go on put something down in your immitable way.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Owl light, a beautiful poem, you are clearly very talented.

And as much as I too love my country, I did find your words and sentiments rather utopian.

Could you use your wit and vision to scribe something nearer the truth? To include our major immigration problems, our soldiers being killed in foriegn lands for no good reason, our roads congested to breaking point, our moraly corrupt goverment, an avalanche of litter and dogs mess in our countryside, the uncontrolable rise in crime particularly vicious assaults, how drugs have infiltrated our lives to such an extent now that they can be purchased at school.

I'm not Mr Angry, I just wish we could address these problems for the love of England and its people.
Go on put something down in your immitable way.

Some people! Get out of your head, Chunky, & open the eye to your heart & soul. Or write it yourself.

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

Some people! Get out of your head, Chunky, & open the eye to your heart & soul. Or write it yourself.

Don't understand man??
Are you saying ignore the truth and float off on an invisible cloud in a non existent nirvana?

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Owl light, a beautiful poem, you are clearly very talented.

And as much as I too love my country, I did find your words and sentiments rather utopian.

Could you use your wit and vision to scribe something nearer the truth? To include our major immigration problems, our soldiers being killed in foriegn lands for no good reason, our roads congested to breaking point, our moraly corrupt goverment, an avalanche of litter and dogs mess in our countryside, the uncontrolable rise in crime particularly vicious assaults, how drugs have infiltrated our lives to such an extent now that they can be purchased at school.

I'm not Mr Angry, I just wish we could address these problems for the love of England and its people.
Go on put something down in your immitable way.

In my own immitable way...? Ok here it comes

I don't write poetry, I just let it out. Some people are very careful about metre and rhyme and what calssification of poetry they are working with - its a mental process for them. Thats not the way it works for me. Something in my subconscious wants to be said and it ends up of the end of my pen, the most I do with it is tidy it up a bit. From a technical standpoint it's probably faulty but I'm not really interested in technal issues.

Poetry is not always meant to be literal, it often points to a way of understanding something or seeing it with new eyes in a way that helps you see what lies beneath the surface. Do you see beneath the surface Paul?

All the problems you describe can be boiled down to a sense of disconnection. A rediscovery of our very real connection to this land would solve them all. No, really. But there are those who can only see that as a Utopian fantasy and refuse to take their shoes off

My patriotism is natural not political.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by Owl-Light

In my own immitable way...? Ok here it comes

I don't write poetry, I just let it out. Some people are very careful about metre and rhyme and what calssification of poetry they are working with - its a mental process for them. Thats not the way it works for me. Something in my subconscious wants to be said and it ends up of the end of my pen, the most I do with it is tidy it up a bit. From a technical standpoint it's probably faulty but I'm not really interested in technal issues.

Poetry is not always meant to be literal, it often points to a way of understanding something or seeing it with new eyes in a way that helps you see what lies beneath the surface. Do you see beneath the surface Paul?

All the problems you describe can be boiled down to a sense of disconnection. A rediscovery of our very real connection to this land would solve them all. No, really. But there are those who can only see that as a Utopian fantasy and refuse to take their shoes off

My patriotism is natural not political.

That's the way to do it

[Susie]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Don't understand man??
Are you saying ignore the truth and float off on an invisible cloud in a non existent nirvana?

I thought the poem was lovely, and I don't think we should confuse the essence of "nature" in this country with socio-economic-political matters although I appreciate that the one has an impact on the other.

Sometimes it is nice just to sit back and appreciate what is still good.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Don't understand man??
Are you saying ignore the truth and float off on an invisible cloud in a non existent nirvana?

'Course I'm not. What I am saying is, Be grounded in the Land, which is very real.

Truth: Now there's a word that has many meanings depending on where one is coming from. Is it real or just percieved? To me Truth comes from the heart, not from the head, as that which comes from the head is nearly always political & there by open to interpretation.

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Owl-Light

In my own immitable way...? Ok here it comes

I don't write poetry, I just let it out. Some people are very careful about metre and rhyme and what calssification of poetry they are working with - its a mental process for them. Thats not the way it works for me. Something in my subconscious wants to be said and it ends up of the end of my pen, the most I do with it is tidy it up a bit. From a technical standpoint it's probably faulty but I'm not really interested in technal issues.

Poetry is not always meant to be literal, it often points to a way of understanding something or seeing it with new eyes in a way that helps you see what lies beneath the surface. Do you see beneath the surface Paul?

All the problems you describe can be boiled down to a sense of disconnection. A rediscovery of our very real connection to this land would solve them all. No, really. But there are those who can only see that as a Utopian fantasy and refuse to take their shoes off

My patriotism is natural not political.

I love your use of words and wish I could match your approach.
I do think this abstract view of things gives kudos to the seer and tends to put them on a higher plane,then along come the bandwagon jumpers.
Emperors and new clothes come to mind.

The point I was trying to get across in my hamfisted way, is that unless we deal with the real issues that are kicking the door in at the moment, then the spirit of England will be lost forever.
You say that if we rediscover our very real connection to this land all the problems I described would be solved, but how do you know this, it is just a flowery sentiment that has no fact or foundation.

Describing a fantasy that I can't see gives you an advantage in any debate because you can simply call me "one eyed" and accuse me of having no soul, but can't realists have soul too?

I say again, I loved your poem and admire your use of words, but it's muscle, not thought, that brings the coal in for the fire!!

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

I love your use of words and wish I could match your approach.
I do think this abstract view of things gives kudos to the seer and tends to put them on a higher plane,then along come the bandwagon jumpers.
Emperors and new clothes come to mind.

The point I was trying to get across in my hamfisted way, is that unless we deal with the real issues that are kicking the door in at the moment, then the spirit of England will be lost forever.
You say that if we rediscover our very real connection to this land all the problems I described would be solved, but how do you know this, it is just a flowery sentiment that has no fact or foundation.

Describing a fantasy that I can't see gives you an advantage in any debate because you can simply call me "one eyed" and accuse me of having no soul, but can't realists have soul too?

I say again, I loved your poem and admire your use of words, but it's muscle, not thought, that brings the coal in for the fire!!

I can see you are not an artist.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Owl light, a beautiful poem, you are clearly very talented.

And as much as I too love my country, I did find your words and sentiments rather utopian.

Could you use your wit and vision to scribe something nearer the truth? To include our major immigration problems, our soldiers being killed in foriegn lands for no good reason, our roads congested to breaking point, our moraly corrupt goverment, an avalanche of litter and dogs mess in our countryside, the uncontrolable rise in crime particularly vicious assaults, how drugs have infiltrated our lives to such an extent now that they can be purchased at school.

I'm not Mr Angry, I just wish we could address these problems for the love of England and its people.
Go on put something down in your immitable way.

Chunky is sayiing most of my thoughts too, I love England but I have spent much of my life on the borderlands (The Marches) between England and Wales and I love Wales too actually I have also wandered over into Scotland on occasion as well and I love Scotland too and although I have never been there I am sure that I would have the same feeling about the island of Ireland too. Mother Nature knows no boundaries so lets be passionate and poetical about all our Island and Islands.

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

'Course I'm not. What I am saying is, Be grounded in the Land, which is very real.

Truth: Now there's a word that has many meanings depending on where one is coming from. Is it real or just percieved? To me Truth comes from the heart, not from the head, as that which comes from the head is nearly always political & there by open to interpretation.

Why do you use phrases like "Be grounded in the Land" what does that mean?
You describe truth in an ambiguous way, do you think talking in this way gives a mystique or aura??

Truth is fact, not fiction or lies or fantasy.

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

I can see you are not an artist.

Doesn't that one line prove my point?
When all else fails play the "you don't understand" card.
What has whether I'm an artist or not got to do with Truth and fantasy.

[Susie]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Mother Nature knows no boundaries so lets be passionate and poetical about all our Island and Islands.

Hear hear!

I live in an area of high immigration, poverty and deprivation but even here there are parks and green spaces. When I walk in those green spaces I feel the essence of nature as described in the poem. All the problems this country has can never destroy Mother Nature and, for me, she is what makes England England.

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Susie

Hear hear!

I live in an area of high immigration, poverty and deprivation but even here there are parks and green spaces. When I walk in those green spaces I feel the essence of nature as described in the poem. All the problems this country has can never destroy Mother Nature and, for me, she is what makes England England.

I admire the sentiment Susie, all I am saying is don't ignore the other things, or all that you hold dear will be gone.

[Susie]

Apologies for the double post.

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

The point I was trying to get across in my hamfisted way, is that unless we deal with the real issues that are kicking the door in at the moment, then the spirit of England will be lost forever.

The spirit of England outlined in the poem will be here long after we, our government, and all the difficulties you mentioned have gone - because it is the spirit of nature.

If you mean the traditional "English" way of life then that is something completely different I would have thought. Apologies if I have got the wrong end of the stick.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Chunky is sayiing most of my thoughts too, I love England but I have spent much of my life on the borderlands (The Marches) between England and Wales and I love Wales too actually I have also wandered over into Scotland on occasion as well and I love Scotland too and although I have never been there I am sure that I would have the same feeling about the island of Ireland too. Mother Nature knows no boundaries so lets be passionate and poetical about all our Island and Islands.

The Land is the Land, whether you're in Ethiopia or England.

[speckled wood]

I have got to admit that some of the spirituality I see here makes me wary, I come from a family of devout "creationist" christians. I have also got to say that I am not a devout christian and I am most certainly not a creationist.

I prefer to look at what I see for what it is, I look at a butterfly or a tree and marvel I don't need to search for some spiritual force, it just satifies me that it is probably the end result of billions of years of an evolutionary process that started by chance and without spiritual reason or some "guiding" and "intelligent" power. I just wonder why some of us have this need to try put a spiritual and "magical" bent on things.

Having walked across a few toes I will now duck for cover.

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

I love your use of words and wish I could match your approach.
I do think this abstract view of things gives kudos to the seer and tends to put them on a higher plane,then along come the bandwagon jumpers.
Emperors and new clothes come to mind.

The point I was trying to get across in my hamfisted way, is that unless we deal with the real issues that are kicking the door in at the moment, then the spirit of England will be lost forever.
You say that if we rediscover our very real connection to this land all the problems I described would be solved, but how do you know this, it is just a flowery sentiment that has no fact or foundation.

Describing a fantasy that I can't see gives you an advantage in any debate because you can simply call me "one eyed" and accuse me of having no soul, but can't realists have soul too?

I say again, I loved your poem and admire your use of words, but it's muscle, not thought, that brings the coal in for the fire!!

Oh dear this will take an essay. Let me try to encapsulate a few points for you at least.

It might surprise you to hear this but I'm very much a realist too and the view really isn't abstract at all. The mistakes we make in society are based on dealing with effects and not root causes. You can reduce the impact of an effect by tackling it but if you don't treat the cause, it will never be a problem solved. Any efforts to deal with a thing head on will inevitably lead to knock on effects and concequently a pleathora of new problems.

Searching for the root cause of an effect is a lengthy process. At first glance a cause may seem superficially obvious but that too is an effect of something deeper still and so it goes on. As does the process of simplification, if you keep openly examining what you see.

Consider each of the difficulties you've described and look at them in terms of a sense of disconnection and you may see what I mean. Ask yourself if these people felt really connected with this land, what behavioural changes would they exhibit?

When children spray grafitti on the walls of their council flats, there is no sense of connection there, they neither touch or are touched by a sense of 'home'. It doesn't have to be that way. Less than a mile from my house is a really rough council estate but in one block the residents got together to make a difference and they most certainly have. This summer every flat had a well tended window box and the council allowed them to plant gorgeous flower beds and shrubs all around the block and now its a delight to see. They've made it home because they are no longer disconnected. Do you see what I mean?

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

I have got to admit that some of the spirituality I see here makes me wary, I come from a family of devout "creationist" christians. I have also got to say that I am not a devout christian and I am most certainly not a creationist.

I prefer to look at what I see for what it is, I look at a butterfly or a tree and marvel I don't need to search for some spiritual force, it just satifies me that it is probably the end result of billions of years of an evolutionary process that started by chance and without spiritual reason or some "guiding" and "intelligent" power. I just wonder why some of us have this need to try put a spiritual and "magical" bent on things.

Having walked across a few toes I will now duck for cover.

Watch out SW, you'll be accused of not understanding, no soul, not an artist, and not grounded in the earth!!

[Susie]

I know what you mean, Speckled Wood. I don't believe in any gods or goddesses but just the fact that millions of years of evolutionary process could create something so beautiful and fascinating as a butterfly is, in itself, magical!

I challenge you (in the nicest possible way) to go down to the woods at dawn and not feel a spirtual sense of wellbeing either - I do and I don't even believe in spirits *grin*

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Doesn't that one line prove my point?
When all else fails play the "you don't understand" card.
What has whether I'm an artist or not got to do with Truth and fantasy.

As I say, man get out of you head, you spend too much time in it. The politics, media & all the oooo that goes with it has addled your brain to what the land can give to you. There comes a time when you have to step outside of your comfort zone & this can be scary but it's worth it when you do. I Do Understand where you're coming from & that is why you do not see outside of your comfort zone, if you can call it that what with all the killing, drugs, abuse etc that you talk about.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Watch out SW, you'll be accused of not understanding, no soul, not an artist, and not grounded in the earth!!

I realise of course that I may need to look for a minder

[chunkychambers]

Originally Posted by Owl-Light

Oh dear this will take an essay. Let me try to encapsulate a few points for you at least.

It might surprise you to hear this but I'm very much a realist too and the view really isn't abstract at all. The mistakes we make in society are based on dealing with effects and not root causes. You can reduce the impact of an effect by tackling it but if you don't treat the cause, it will never be a problem solved. Any efforts to deal with a thing head on will inevitably lead to knock on effects and concequently a pleathora of new problems.

Searching for the root cause of an effect is a lengthy process. At first glance a cause may seem superficially obvious but that too is an effect of something deeper still and so it goes on. As does the process of simplification, if you keep openly examining what you see.

Consider each of the difficulties you've described and look at them in terms of a sense of disconnection and you may see what I mean. Ask yourself if these people felt really connected with this land, what behavioural changes would they exhibit?

When children spray grafitti on the walls of their council flats, there is no sense of connection there, they neither touch or are touched by a sense of 'home'. It doesn't have to be that way. Less than a mile from my house is a really rough council estate but in one block the residents got together to make a difference and they most certainly have. This summer every flat had a well tended window box and the council allowed them to plant gorgeous flower beds and shrubs all around the block and now its a delight to see. They've made it home because they are no longer disconnected. Do you see what I mean?

Yes I do see what you mean and I tend to agree, your argument is well put.

When I first replied to your lovely poem I was interested to see if someone with your skill could also turn those abilities to things that were not so nice?? And still do.

I felt I got waylaid a little by hairy fairy attitudes which I couldn't agree with, I believe this country of ours is in a terrible situation at the moment and being told to "open the eye to my mind" does'nt quite gird my loins.

However, perhaps you and I are not that far apart we both have the Spirit of England close to our hearts.

By the way can I use your first name??