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20-10-2006, 06:25 PM
|  | New Member | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Devon
Posts: 5
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
For goodness sake! I believe that chunky was actually complimenting the poet and agreeing with the sentiment. Reality is indicating that unless we look after our environment and deal with the issues that chunky raised then Britain will not be the beautiful and "spiritual" place that we were born into. |
20-10-2006, 06:34 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: North Devon
Posts: 379
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by StuartDH I've just split this thread from the original poem as I think it's quite political and off-topic and could discourage others from poetry if they think it'll be scrutinised in a similar way.
Chunkchambers, should we apply the same methods to the gallery? Do we need to include a discarded shopping trolley, burnt out car or syringe in every photo of nature, or can we just see it's beauty and leave the 'reality' to www.itsalldoomandgloom.co.uk  | Well Stuart, your new title is witty and clever but I think you missed the point of the thread!
I asked if the obviously talented poet would put down a verse or two describing our country as it really is, including the points I put forward.
This then moved into how different people perceive our country differently, and what is a realist compared to an idealist.
The above can only be described as political in the loosest sense.
As for going off topic, the thread was titled Spirit of England and thats what we were debating.
The original poster was part of the discussion from start to finish, and the whole thing was mostly good natured. Toward the end of the thread I asked again about composing a different type of poem.
So I think you are mistaken, we wern't off topic or political.
Your last point about the gallery is well made, and I agree if you are looking at something beautiful then that view should not be soiled.
But my point is that not everything is beautiful and we should view that as well, and if we pretend it's not there then woe may betide us.
I think these points on both sides were well debated in an interesting way and honestly can't see your problem with the thread.
All the best for now.....Chunky.  |
20-10-2006, 06:41 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: North Devon
Posts: 379
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by cannylad I cant use the words you guys use, i wish i could. The natural world for me is so important it heals my hurts.
It can be just sitting quietly watching wildlife pass me by, being a part of the moment is all i ask.
When it works its the best drug i could ever need ,and i know i will never be able to express it to others.
I cant paint, draw, write music, or poetry i wish i could.
I have been nearer to God in a forest, nearer than i have ever been in a church, the beauties of my land can always surpass the negatives as long as i let them in.
I am envious of those of you with talent enough to portray my love of nature through the various mediums available thank you.
brian. | Brian, your words are very touching and unpretencious and I applaud you.  |
20-10-2006, 07:05 PM
|  | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Spirit of England
Aren't we all since the last Ice Age?
I think that English/Englishness/England are so hard to define (I always say 'British' or 'UK Citizen' when asked).
I'm not a great one for genealogy but some of my family have investigated their forebears - my sons can trace the line back to both William Wallace and to William the Conqueror's invaders. For my part, I know I have Irish, Welsh and maybe a Cornish pixie in the family tree. My extended family includes Germans ("Aryan" and Jewish), French, Indian and north American people. I suspect that most of my ancestors were of simple Saxon peasant stock but does any of this make me 'English'?
No, we're talking about choices, likes and dislikes ......
Back to the Norse/Saxon thing. I live on the boundary between Northumbria and Mercia very close to where England came into existence http://homepages.shu.ac.uk/%7Eacsdry/dorehist.htm (Dore used to be in Derbyshire but was annexed by Sheffield in the 70s). This boundary is actually a very real physical one where the 'edges' of Yorkshire tower above the lowland of the Midlands .... and the wildlife differs as a result Quote: |
Originally Posted by Imaginos Norsemen? Saxons?
Immigrants! | |
20-10-2006, 07:10 PM
|  | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mendip Dist. Somerset
Posts: 741
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Stu, I hope he doesn't mind but I have to agree with Chunky. In the end we all had a group huggle to settle it down.
It's very strange how people perceive things these days & we were looking at these.
Maybe I should post a piece that I wrote for WWFs "Worlds in Difference". A book looking at the world's belief systems & how they look on the environment. Sad to say, the christians came out the worst of the bunch. Still, if the Worldwide Fund for Nature can publish it why can't we debate it?
The poem was an integral part of the debate.
__________________
"He who could do little did nothing."
Eugene Odum, when asked what is the worst case scenario when it came to the Environment. |
20-10-2006, 07:12 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
I agree. I don't think this thread was being offensive - weird and therefore wonderful perhaps, as other threads which often ramble. I don't think any offence was meant or given to the poem and poet - the discussion has followed from the content of the rhyme, not the poem as art ...
As for the gallery thing - as an urban ecologist who has spent time rummaging amongst syringes and condoms looking for beetles, I wouldn't particularly want to see detailed photos of these; but I don't think we can ignore nature in urban areas. To me it's often more interesting than country wildlife, especially intensively cropped fields or twee villages! Quote: |
Originally Posted by chunkychambers Well Stuart, your new title is witty and clever but I think you missed the point of the thread!
I asked if the obviously talented poet would put down a verse or two describing our country as it really is, including the points I put forward.
This then moved into how different people perceive our country differently, and what is a realist compared to an idealist.
The above can only be described as political in the loosest sense.
As for going off topic, the thread was titled Spirit of England and thats what we were debating.
The original poster was part of the discussion from start to finish, and the whole thing was mostly good natured. Toward the end of the thread I asked again about composing a different type of poem.
So I think you are mistaken, we wern't off topic or political.
Your last point about the gallery is well made, and I agree if you are looking at something beautiful then that view should not be soiled.
But my point is that not everything is beautiful and we should view that as well, and if we pretend it's not there then woe may betide us.
I think these points on both sides were well debated in an interesting way and honestly can't see your problem with the thread.
All the best for now.....Chunky. | |
20-10-2006, 07:12 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sunny Doncaster
Posts: 4,351
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Not for the first time have 'new members' from Devon had to jump to Chunky's defence. Are you sure you are not related? Paul, you complain of being patronised and I too find it odd that folk are patronising. Patronising this thread that is. You are in a very dark place my friend and should take your discharge elsewhere.
Try here Grumpier Old Men, the web site for Grumpy Old Men |
20-10-2006, 07:16 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mendip Dist. Somerset
Posts: 741
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
When all is said & done, England comes from Angle's Land. The Angles settled here in the 5th centuary, in eastern britian, East Anglia.
__________________
"He who could do little did nothing."
Eugene Odum, when asked what is the worst case scenario when it came to the Environment. |
20-10-2006, 07:18 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
I seem to be the only Paul on this thread so presume this was aimed at me. What are you talking about? Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boddie .......... Paul, you complain of being patronised and I too find it odd that folk are patronising. Patronising this thread that is. You are in a very dark place my friend and should take your discharge elsewhere.
[/url] | |
20-10-2006, 07:21 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sunny Doncaster
Posts: 4,351
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Sorry Paul. I thought Chunky's name was Paul |
20-10-2006, 07:23 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
And it may well be!
You're forgiven ... this time! Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boddie Sorry Paul. I thought Chunky's name was Paul | |
20-10-2006, 07:27 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sunny Doncaster
Posts: 4,351
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul mabbott And it may well be!
You're forgiven ... this time! | You are welcome but I guess with over 5,000 members there was a slight chance someone else may share such a rare name? |
20-10-2006, 07:33 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: North Devon
Posts: 379
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boddie Not for the first time have 'new members' from Devon had to jump to Chunky's defence. Are you sure you are not related? Paul, you complain of being patronised and I too find it odd that folk are patronising. Patronising this thread that is. You are in a very dark place my friend and should take your discharge elsewhere.
Try here Grumpier Old Men, the web site for Grumpy Old Men | I have no idea why you are being offensive, we were just debating different points of view in a controlled manner. I was not dorrogatry or insulting to anyone!
If the posters took no offence then what's your problem? |
20-10-2006, 07:38 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Going totally off topic (maybe) but in my generation there are (or were) so many Pauls that it needs some clarification (why I use my full name for web purposes). Strange how names wax and wane in popularity - so many Matts in a younger generation &c.
One of the peculiarities of the 'English' perhaps is the vast numbers of first names used - no such diversity in France, Greece or Iraq! Quote: |
Originally Posted by Boddie You are welcome but I guess with over 5,000 members there was a slight chance someone else may share such a rare name? | |
20-10-2006, 07:50 PM
| | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Sunny Doncaster
Posts: 4,351
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul mabbott Going totally off topic (maybe) but in my generation there are (or were) so many Pauls that it needs some clarification (why I use my full name for web purposes). Strange how names wax and wane in popularity - so many Matts in a younger generation &c.
One of the peculiarities of the 'English' perhaps is the vast numbers of first names used - no such diversity in France, Greece or Iraq! | I beg to differ with you there Paul. As I am sure my friends Pierre, Stavros and Mohammed would too. |
20-10-2006, 08:26 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Peoples Democratic Republic of South Cheshire
Posts: 1,248
| | | Re: Spirit of England
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul mabbott (Dore used to be in Derbyshire but was annexed by Sheffield in the 70s). This boundary is actually a very real physical one where the 'edges' of Yorkshire tower above the lowland of the Midlands .... and the wildlife differs as a result | Fascinating thing this, I often travel along a quiet lane that crosses the border from South Cheshire into North Shropshire and which rises as it does so, quite often in mid winter there will be fog or snow on the Shropshire side of the border but no snow or fog on the Cheshire side this ussually happens within yards of the border! Perhaps the tendancy for the weather to change here was used to define where the county border was. |
20-10-2006, 08:26 PM
|  | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chilterns
Posts: 8,091
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Earth Hart When all is said & done, England comes from Angle's Land. The Angles settled here in the 5th centuary, in eastern britian, East Anglia. | Presumably as you celebrate imbolc and sahmain etc which are celtic festivals you would charecterise yourself as british rather than aenglish ?
On a tangent I only found out the other day that "welsh" is a derogatory term for celtic britains derived from the saxon "Whelas" meaning toads - or that the "welsh" name for england , lloegyr actually means "the lost land"
Given the argument raging on this thread I feel that i should also point out that I intend no offence to anybody welsh , english or whatever 
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"new improved eeyore , now with added tact..... for that whiter brighter finish" |
20-10-2006, 08:44 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Spirit of England
You certainly do notice the change in the weather! Sheffield is hardly 'northern' really - even for England - it's very southerly when you take Scotland into account. But I always feel that this is a *different* land from the south of UK. Going over the border to Scotland is not really noticeable - it looks much the same as Cumbria or Northumbria - the bigger change is when you get to the Highlands. You know when you're going into Wales - nothing to do with language or other human things, but the land changes.
Maybe it's me but I feel more attuned to changes in landscape and ecosystem than to language and nationality ..... Quote: |
Originally Posted by speckled wood Fascinating thing this, I often travel along a quiet lane that crosses the border from South Cheshire into North Shropshire and which rises as it does so, quite often in mid winter there will be fog or snow on the Shropshire side of the border but no snow or fog on the Cheshire side this ussually happens within yards of the border! Perhaps the tendancy for the weather to change here was used to define where the county border was. | |
20-10-2006, 08:53 PM
|  | Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Lincolnshire/Cambs/Norfolk border right on The Wash
Posts: 2,213
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by cannylad I cant use the words you guys use, i wish i could. The natural world for me is so important it heals my hurts.
It can be just sitting quietly watching wildlife pass me by, being a part of the moment is all i ask.
When it works its the best drug i could ever need ,and i know i will never be able to express it to others.
I cant paint, draw, write music, or poetry i wish i could.
I have been nearer to God in a forest, nearer than i have ever been in a church, the beauties of my land can always surpass the negatives as long as i let them in.
I am envious of those of you with talent enough to portray my love of nature through the various mediums available thank you.
brian. | Brian, I think if you changed the punctuation and spacing you have just written a poem. Those are beautiful words.
jaki
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too many books... not enough money!!!!!!!!!! |
20-10-2006, 08:59 PM
| | Officer of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mendip Dist. Somerset
Posts: 741
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by eeyore Presumably as you celebrate imbolc and sahmain etc which are celtic festivals you would charecterise yourself as british rather than aenglish ?
On a tangent I only found out the other day that "welsh" is a derogatory term for celtic britains derived from the saxon "Whelas" meaning toads - or that the "welsh" name for england , lloegyr actually means "the lost land"
Given the argument raging on this thread I feel that i should also point out that I intend no offence to anybody welsh , english or whatever | Like the tangent, have learned something new today. And yes, I see myself as british/saxon, mixed blood. Sadly that's what happens to a conquered people.
__________________
"He who could do little did nothing."
Eugene Odum, when asked what is the worst case scenario when it came to the Environment. |
20-10-2006, 09:05 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chilterns
Posts: 8,091
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Earth Hart Like the tangent, have learned something new today. And yes, I see myself as british/saxon, mixed blood. Sadly that's what happens to a conquered people. | I like to think of myself as a celt, my mothers familly are all mcphees and macdonalds but the fact that I am 6' 4" and 13 stone doesnt really indicate pure celtic blood - on my fathers side we are half celt half norse so I guess I have some large viking warrior in me too.
Incidentally although the term Lloegyr means the lost land, a true translation also indicates that this loss is temporary and that one day we will take it back and push the sais into the sea, which the celts very nearly did at Mount Badon in around 560AD where they kicked some serious saxon butt
now where did I leave my war axe .....
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"new improved eeyore , now with added tact..... for that whiter brighter finish" |
20-10-2006, 09:13 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Where's the sadness come from? Or the 'mixed blood'? We're all humans with mixed *cultures* - surely only neo-Nazis believe in "bloodlines"? As agriculturists know, it's the 'hybrid vigour' that produces the best crops! Wouldn't it be boring if we were all tall, blond Norwegians (another stereotype, I know)? Quote: |
Originally Posted by Earth Hart Like the tangent, have learned something new today. And yes, I see myself as british/saxon, mixed blood. Sadly that's what happens to a conquered people. | |
20-10-2006, 09:14 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sheffield, FPRSY
Posts: 5,218
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
I first thought that said 'half horse' (well, I spent a long time in Lunnon) - a centaur? Quote: |
Originally Posted by eeyore we are half celt half norse ...........now where did I leave my war axe ..... | |
20-10-2006, 09:19 PM
| | Knight Commander of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Chilterns
Posts: 8,091
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
Quote: |
Originally Posted by Paul mabbott I first thought that said 'half horse' (well, I spent a long time in Lunnon) - a centaur? | more like half donkey 
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"new improved eeyore , now with added tact..... for that whiter brighter finish" |
20-10-2006, 09:20 PM
| | Member of the Wild Empire | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Leicester
Posts: 319
| | | Re: Belittle Britain
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