Vegetarian?

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

If animals dont have the emotions that humans have.. why do dogs dream.. and whimper and cry in their dreams. Does that not indicate emotion?

Have you never seen the pleasure on a dogs face when he sees someone he loves... or is running free... the smile is tremendous.

I cant say for sure but I believe pigs display affection too.. and horses. Surely that is emotion?

And look at what happens when people treat dogs as humans, they don't have the intelect to deal with it, and are much happier being treated as part of a pack, in which they are told what to do

I can see i'm on a hiding to nothing in this debate, so will bow out and keep my views to myself

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

I promise I'm not being provocative here but what is thats lead you to believe that they are so unlike us? Its playing on my mind because its perplexing me.

I ask simply because to me it seems obvious that most animals experience/express the same emotions as we do, especially if you observe them carefully. With no intention to cause offence to anyone, we are are we not, simply advanced Apes ourselves after all?

To most people we are not animals well we're not vegetables nor mineral, so what are we? As you say we belong to the Family of Primates but it will take a long, long time for most people to accept this as they see themselves above all life.

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

No doubt that animals can feel some kind of emotions, happiness or contentment in living in an environment which is good for them etc. But my problem comes when you talk about fear in respect to them going to the slaughter house, cows for instance have no prior knowledge of this, are they of a high enough intellegence to have a fear of something when they don't know what is going to happen?

Have you ever been to a slaughter house LincsYellowbelly.. cows, pigs and sheep all feel fear... you can see it in their eyes .. they smell it, they feel it. If these animals didnt feel fear why do they react the way they do in trying, sometimes successfully, to escape the slaughter house. I am sure we have all seen media (hyped or otherwise) articles about such escapes.

I have recently become involved with helping a friend with her chickens. They all have their own characters and all display emotion, and boy do those hens look after their young.. calling for them when they are missing. I found it amazing at first, then I thought.. why wouldnt they. We say about giving animals human emotion, I dont honestly think we need to.. they have them anyway!

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

And look at what happens when people treat dogs as humans, they don't have the intelect to deal with it, and are much happier being treated as part of a pack, in which they are told what to do

That is exactly what happens in a dog human relationship.. the human becomes the Alpha animal and tells the dog/s what to do. They become the pack

"they don't have the intelect to deal with it," take it we are talking the dog here.. not the human

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

And look at what happens when people treat dogs as humans, they don't have the intelect to deal with it, and are much happier being treated as part of a pack, in which they are told what to do

I can see i'm on a hiding to nothing in this debate, so will bow out and keep my views to myself

No need to bow out thats what discussions are for, we should be able to handle widely differing opinions. Thats what makes the discussion interesting. As long as everyone stays cool and just examines the views being presented sensibly, that is. I think we're doing pretty well here

Your Dog example is a good one because it also fits my view. From my own experience the depth of emotions a Dog feels and expresses is no less profound than our own. However we have to be fully aware that their perception of the world and of relationships are different from ours.

A dog is a pack animal and certainly looks to what he/she percieves as pack the Alpha for guidance and direction. Pack relationships involve rules and etiquette to be sure. Strong leadership is what is required of a human in a human/dog relationship but not by forcing them into submission and quashing every sound or attempt at self expression they make, as I've sometimes seen people do. It amounts to making your pet the omega in the pack and thats very tragic.

As Garden Carpet describes, a dog is naturally a joyous animal and full to the brim with love. Nothing means more to a dog than acceptance and being loved as deeply in return, from what I perceive of their natures. As species, their loyalty and devotion frequently outshines our own.

So what makes us so great?

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

That is exactly what happens in a dog human relationship.. the human becomes the Alpha animal and tells the dog/s what to do. They become the pack

"they don't have the intelect to deal with it," take it we are talking the dog here.. not the human

Wyrd. Typing my great long post as I'm wont to do, I press send and find when it appears you've posted just before me saying almost the same thing - kinda. I didn't see your post before I typed mine honest! Some telepathy here methinks!

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

To most people we are not animals well we're not vegetables nor mineral, so what are we? As you say we belong to the Family of Primates but it will take a long, long time for most people to accept this as they see themselves above all life.

Humans tend to see themselves as something 'other', somewhere between the animal kingdom and the gods (or God). Its a lamentably lost connection with the rest of our animal kin in my view.

Maybe they feel a loss of elevated status if they classify themselves as belonging among other animals. Its 'human and animals' in most expressions isn't it? Two different classifications.

Recognising the relationship doesn't deminish us, rather it elevates our perception of the rest of our family of Life on Earth ( not a plug for the excellent TV seriesby the way ). No doubt that all sounds pretty odd to most peeps

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Wyrd. Typing my great long post as I'm wont to do, I press send and find when it appears you've posted just before me saying almost the same thing - kinda. I didn't see your post before I typed mine honest! Some telepathy here methinks!

Great minds ... and all that!!

[chunkychambers]

Never seen an animal write a book...

[Susie]

I find myself agreeing with everything the pair of you say in relation to animals and the emotions they feel .. and since you both put it so well I shall shut up.


.. except I would like to say one more thing .. I think that for us who do eat meat and enjoy it ... it is important to appreciate the value of the meat we eat and to do our best to ensure that while it was alive it had the best life possible and the swiftest, most painless, death.

Unfortunately Mother Nature is not kind and loving all the time, she is red in tooth and claw, and so am I. I would quite happily kill to eat.

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Susie

I find myself agreeing with everything the pair of you say in relation to animals and the emotions they feel .. and since you both put it so well I shall shut up.


.. except I would like to say one more thing .. I think that for us who do eat meat and enjoy it ... it is important to appreciate the value of the meat we eat and to do our best to ensure that while it was alive it had the best life possible and the swiftest, most painless, death.

Unfortunately Mother Nature is not kind and loving all the time, she is red in tooth and claw, and so am I. I would quite happily kill to eat.

I agree with you agreeing with us Susie. .. and I think you are a rare and brave woman who could say I would quite happily kill to eat. Well said.

[honeybee]

If anything makes mankind more important than any other species it is our conscience and intelligence which gives us the ability to make informed decisions. My conscience and morals tell me that to harm another living creature is wrong. I'm a civilised (well most of the time) human being in the 21st century, not a hunter-gatherer or cave woman and I do not need to eat animals. The majority of us on here are lovers of pets and wildlife so why is the eating of certain creatures acceptable (because it's a billion dollar industry inflicted on us). I've never eaten meat, I've never had more than a cold in my life. My parents are fit and well and my daughter is very strong and healthy. I'm not perfect by any means but I love all animals full stop. The suffering that is put on animals from the day they're born til the second they're killed is in many cases horrendous.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by honeybee

If anything makes mankind more important than any other species it is our conscience and intelligence which gives us the ability to make informed decisions. My conscience and morals tell me that to harm another living creature is wrong. I'm a civilised (well most of the time) human being in the 21st century, not a hunter-gatherer or cave woman and I do not need to eat animals. The majority of us on here are lovers of pets and wildlife so why is the eating of certain creatures acceptable (because it's a billion dollar industry inflicted on us). I've never eaten meat, I've never had more than a cold in my life. My parents are fit and well and my daughter is very strong and healthy. I'm not perfect by any means but I love all animals full stop. The suffering that is put on animals from the day they're born til the second they're killed is in many cases horrendous.

That you have never had more than a cold means that you are very lucky, doubtless there are many Eskimos and Laplanders who have never had more than a cold but in thier case there is very little in their diet that is not meat. The issue of our attitude towards animals is complex, we talk of "loving" pets but is it fair to breed an animal in such a ways as to totally alter its behaviour and physical make-up just so that we can hold it captive as a "pet" and a plaything? And do we honestly know whether breeding a wolf so that it becomes no larger than a large rat does not cause suffering?

[Jennywrenny]

Well it's taken me ages to read through this lot - I can't believe how many posts there have been since I left for work this morning - there were 19 then and now there's 87! And can I also apologise - I didn't realise there was a similar thread - I've had a read through that one as well. I did do a search for 'vegetarian' before I posted this one but the other thread didn't come up because that has 'veggie' in the title.

It has been an interesting read and I can't believe there's so much I didn't know. I gave up meat when I was a child - I can't say I was thinking about environmental issues at the time - it just repulsed me to know that animals were being killed.

I think I would be interested (not sure if that is the right word) to see the programme that someone mentioned (now was that this thread or the other thread?) about slaughterhouses... although I know it would just sicken me but I don't think we should close our eyes to what goes on (can't say Dave's quite so keen though).

I've got to say that I do agree a lot with what Matxyz and Sheryl have had to say but it has also been interesting to hear everybody else's points of view as well

Anyway I'm looking forward to my tea tomorrow night... Autumn Vegetable Hotpot... yummy

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by Jennywrenny

It has been an interesting read and I can't believe there's so much I didn't know. I gave up meat when I was a child - I can't say I was thinking about environmental issues at the time - it just repulsed me to know that animals were being killed.

It is interesting out emotive this issue is and how many postings it has attracted when there are issues posted elsewhere that are at least as important the thread regarding "grubbing up of hedgerows" for nothing more than am EU subsidy, the truth is that because of this many animals will lose a vital habit and many of them will die as a result, this too is certainly worthy of our revulsion.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

It is interesting out emotive this issue is and how many postings it has attracted when there are issues posted elsewhere that are at least as important the thread regarding "grubbing up of hedgerows" for nothing more than am EU subsidy, the truth is that because of this many animals will lose a vital habit and many of them will die as a result, this too is certainly worthy of our revulsion.

Gudonyr, speckled wood. When it comes down to what we eat it becomes an issue in many quarters. I'm glad no one here has told me I should be a veggie as I'm into the Earth. Those that do around here in Wells have little awareness of what or who we are.

Let's get back on track & deal with problems out there in the countryside & let our stomachs digest what they will.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

Gudonyr, speckled wood. When it comes down to what we eat it becomes an issue in many quarters. I'm glad no one here has told me I should be a veggie as I'm into the Earth. Those that do around here in Wells have little awareness of what or who we are.

Let's get back on track & deal with problems out there in the countryside & let our stomachs digest what they will.

Somewhere I have got the book "Why not eat insects?", personally I would prefer to stick to chocolate, but diabetes and yet another blood test later this month means that I can't!

In the meantime to continue the controversy can I speak up for two culinary delights ..... Celery and Brussels Spouts, I love them both yet a friend of mine believes that all Brussels Spouts should be eradicated as they are an insult to civilisation

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Somewhere I have got the book "Why not eat insects?", personally I would prefer to stick to chocolate, but diabetes and yet another blood test later this month means that I can't!

In the meantime to continue the controversy can I speak up for two culinary delights ..... Celery and Brussels Spouts, I love them both yet a friend of mine believes that all Brussels Spouts should be eradicated as they are an insult to civilisation

He/She has never had Sprouts cooked properly, steamed with fresh coriander leaves, served with butter & fresh ground 5 spice pepper. Delicious.

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

S...In the meantime to continue the controversy can I speak up for two culinary delights ..... Celery and Brussels Spouts, I love them both yet a friend of mine believes that all Brussels Spouts should be eradicated as they are an insult to civilisation

Heh, heh, heh Sounds a bit like Bowdie's reaction to Celery or Cloves (he quite likes Brussels Sprouts in moderation as do I)! Cloves were banned from the house for a long time until I needed some for toothache. They're certianly still banned from all our meals which is a shame coz the add a certain something to a mince dish.. I don't think there is any veg I have a strong dislike for. Not too fond of capers.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

No, not at all, am merely pointing out that in the unlikly event of everyone becoming vegetarian there wouldnt be a danger to the animals we currently farm.. the massive breeding programmes there are now would be phased out over time. As I eat meat, I can hardly be an advocate for vegetarianism. I was just attempting (perhaps not very well) to say that the 'farm' animals wouldnt dissapear and maybe more varieties would be around. Just maybe. Perhaps that is a rather simplistic view. I hope not

I think this might end up being the case is the farmers market type situation continues to to grow as they often tend to promote rare breeds etc

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

Never seen an animal write a book...

Go into any bookshop or library & you'll see loads of books written by animals

[Susie]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Somewhere I have got the book "Why not eat insects?", personally I would prefer to stick to chocolate, but diabetes and yet another blood test later this month means that I can't!

In the meantime to continue the controversy can I speak up for two culinary delights ..... Celery and Brussels Spouts, I love them both yet a friend of mine believes that all Brussels Spouts should be eradicated as they are an insult to civilisation

Ewwwww, I'd rather eat insects any day than sprouts!!!

[Paul mabbott]

Good point - most meat-eaters pay little attention to their vegetables (many of which, I suspect, get binned) therefore they get over-cooked, old, out-of-season, frozen ones which probably don't taste very good .... thus reinforcing their views!

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

He/She has never had Sprouts cooked properly, steamed with fresh coriander leaves, served with butter & fresh ground 5 spice pepper. Delicious.