Vegetarian?

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

well, this is where the vegetarian argument has some appeal (I am a long term veggie by the way). The area of land required to provide a veggie diet is significantly less than that required to provide a carnivorous diet. To provide humans with x calories from meat requires significantly more calories of animal feed. I believe a very large proportion of arable crops in the UK are for animal feed.

Matt

Homo Sapiens are omnivorous higher primates, we're not carnivores. At least my dentist say we're not & she should know.

[Gill Catton]

Gorillas are largely vegetarian and Chimps largely omnivorous with no problems eating other chimps or monkeys alive, both have fairly similar dentition to us so maybe it's not quite that simple.

Also herbivores such as cows and hippos have been recorded having a chew on a corpse so what does that make them?

[Imaginos]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

it depends what region we're talking about. In South East Asia, logging is the principle cause of deforestation. Matt

Don't forget Palm Oil, a large component of most vegetable oils, comes from deforested areas of South East Asia.
I'm not disputing that there is a lot of environmental damage caused by the production of meat, what I am disputing is the idea that vegans/vegetarians are completely blameless in this respect, they are not.
And don't even get me started (again) on the effects of pesticides sprayed on -particularly- cereal fields on the food chain...

[Garden Carpet]

I heard that the rain forest is being cleared to provide bio fuel. We can not do anything right it seems. We need better fuels but we dont need deforestation.

I was a vegetarian for 20yrs and vegan the last three of those. Although I was careful with our diet I didnt feel well and craved meat in the last year... oh yes.. I must be about the only veggie who managed to put on weight on the diet

We are designed to eat from a vast and varied table. It isnt vegetarian or meat eater causing the problem it is MAN.

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Imaginos

Don't forget Palm Oil, a large component of most vegetable oils, comes from deforested areas of South East Asia.
I'm not disputing that there is a lot of environmental damage caused by the production of meat, what I am disputing is the idea that vegans/vegetarians are completely blameless in this respect, they are not.
And don't even get me started (again) on the effects of pesticides sprayed on -particularly- cereal fields on the food chain...

All food production is environmentally damaging in some regard, I'm certainly not claiming otherwise. But my point is simple: if you object to the manner in which crops are grown, you should favour a vegetarian diet rather than one containing meat. As I've said above, meat production results in more cereal crops being grown than 'vegetarian' production would.

Matt

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

But my point is simple: if you object to the manner in which crops are grown, you should favour a vegetarian diet rather than one containing meat.
Matt

An awful lot of the reasons to become vegetarian really ought to result in veganism though.......... leather shoes, soap, even fruit pastilles for the gelatine support the meat industry.....
I think that you can object to harmful farming methods regardless of diet just choose to support those that farm appropriately....

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

It isnt vegetarian or meat eater causing the problem it is MAN.

Absolutely. More to the point its 'Big Business' and the kind of mentality that usually goes with it.

Keep it small, keep it local (so you can keep yer beady eye on them I reckon) and ideally grow your own. Thats part of the solution.

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

An awful lot of the reasons to become vegetarian really ought to result in veganism though.......... leather shoes, soap, even fruit pastilles for the gelatine support the meat industry...

Gelatine would be avoided by most veggies actually but I take your point and agree. Thats why I'm moving towards a Vegan diet/lifestyle myself. It is difficult, you wouldn't believe how many things there are on the market that contain animal products. Things you'd wouldn't believe even needed them in there. It frequently takes you by complete surprise and what a pain to have to scan every single label too. But at least labeling is getting better these days. Not there yet but I'm on my way.

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

In respect to the "killing defensless animals" issue i've seen posted a number of times in this thread. How many of these animals would actually exsist if we did not eat meat or use dairy products? none, the countryside would be bare as farmers don't keep these animals for anything other than money. So i suppose you have to decide whether you want the animal to live before being used for meat, or whether you want the animal never to have been born in the first place

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Absolutely. More to the point its 'Big Business' and the kind of mentality that usually goes with it.

Keep it small, keep it local (so you can keep yer beady eye on them I reckon) and ideally grow your own. Thats part of the solution.

Gelatine would be avoided by most veggies actually but I take your point and agree. Thats why I'm moving towards a Vegan diet/lifestyle myself. It is difficult, you wouldn't believe how many things there are on the market that contain animal products. Things you'd wouldn't believe even needed them in there. It frequently takes you by complete surprise and what a pain to have to scan every single label too. But at least labeling is getting better these days. Not there yet but I'm on my way.

Yeah I had a few vegan friends at Uni, I know it's difficult - and I'm a fine one to talk with my weakness for battered sin.....

Don't they use gelatine in the production of photographs? and then does this stretch to magazines too? Eeuurrgghhhhhh minefield alert!!

[Garden Carpet]

[quote=Sheryl LaBouchardiere]Absolutely. More to the point its 'Big Business' and the kind of mentality that usually goes with it.

Keep it small, keep it local (so you can keep yer beady eye on them I reckon) and ideally grow your own. Thats part of the solution.QUOTE]

I agree with keeping it small and more so with grow your own. I am waiting for a waist high raised bed to be built in my garden so that I may grow some of my own. This year I grew in growbags..but it seems that all I did was feed the local catapillar population.. greedy beggers stripped the foliage from my cauli Next year with the raised bed I will be able to cover the whole lot in netting to protect it... might just do one grow bag for the moths and butterflies I plan on using the square foot method which seems to produce a lot for little effort.. a method I am in favour of as I am a lazy B!. This system means that anyone.. even those living in towns who might only have a tiny yard can raise some food of their own.. and there is nothing nicer than going out and picking the veg for dinner from just outside the door. One tip... dont grow tomatoes in the same conservatory as your grape vine. I lost about 30lbs of grapes by doing that this year

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

In respect to the "killing defensless animals" issue i've seen posted a number of times in this thread. How many of these animals would actually exsist if we did not eat meat or use dairy products? none, the countryside would be bare as farmers don't keep these animals for anything other than money. So i suppose you have to decide whether you want the animal to live before being used for meat, or whether you want the animal never to have been born in the first place

Not sure I get your reasoning there.

We are where we are in time. If there was less of a market for meat products farmers would turn to arable farming, gradually breeding less livestock in the process. It seems reasonable to assume that numbers would decline as demand fell. Farm animals rarely get the chance to breed naturally even that is artificially induced.

I seriously doubt that farmers would abandon their way of life entirely. They are usually fearcely in defense of it. But the market is driven by demand and they'll no doubt do what brings them the greatest profits.

[Owl-Light]

[quote=Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Absolutely. More to the point its 'Big Business' and the kind of mentality that usually goes with it.

Keep it small, keep it local (so you can keep yer beady eye on them I reckon) and ideally grow your own. Thats part of the solution.QUOTE]

I agree with keeping it small and more so with grow your own. I am waiting for a waist high raised bed to be built in my garden so that I may grow some of my own. This year I grew in growbags..but it seems that all I did was feed the local catapillar population.. greedy beggers stripped the foliage from my cauli Next year with the raised bed I will be able to cover the whole lot in netting to protect it... might just do one grow bag for the moths and butterflies I plan on using the square foot method which seems to produce a lot for little effort.. a method I am in favour of as I am a lazy B!. This system means that anyone.. even those living in towns who might only have a tiny yard can raise some food of their own.. and there is nothing nicer than going out and picking the veg for dinner from just outside the door. One tip... dont grow tomatoes in the same conservatory as your grape vine. I lost about 30lbs of grapes by doing that this year

Our Garden eats most things I try to plant. All manner of herbs and even Ramsons have all disappeared.

I had some luck with Strawberries and Broad Beans last year. Its cool that alot of vegetable plants when they flower are really pretty too. Runner beans for example.

It is wonderful waking up, having a wander through your garden and being able to pick picking your own cherries, blackberries, apples and rosehips fresh and still covered with morning dew for breakfast.

I'll try again next spring and see if I can give my veggies a better chance with a bit more protection too

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Not sure I get your reasoning there.

We are where we are in time. If there was less of a market for meat products farmers would turn to arable farming, gradually breeding less livestock in the process. It seems reasonable to assume that numbers would decline as demand fell. Farm animals rarely get the chance to breed naturally even that is artificially induced.

I seriously doubt that farmers would abandon their way of life entirely. They are usually fearcely in defense of it. But the market is driven by demand and they'll no doubt do what brings them the greatest profits.

I think his argument is simply that if no one ate cows or drank cows milk there would be no cows except maybe in a handful of sanctuaries, ditto pigs, goats and turkies.

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I think his argument is simply that if no one ate cows or drank cows milk there would be no cows except maybe in a handful of sanctuaries, ditto pigs, goats and turkies.

I see. Mmm, better to see fewer contented cows living out a gentle life in 'Nature Parks' than countless fields of them doomed to being processed in one way or another then experiencing terror in the slaughter house.

I can barely look at lambs in springtime knowing their early fate. Or to see great trucks of sheep crammed together en route... Not trying to be emotional about it but it breaks my heart.

Ah now see whats happened you've made my usual emotional reserve slip there, not good. I'm going to shut up now.

Not you personally Gill, I hasten to add.

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

I think his argument is simply that if no one ate cows or drank cows milk there would be no cows except maybe in a handful of sanctuaries, ditto pigs, goats and turkies.

I cant agree with that Gill, my mother used to argue with me that if everyone became vegetarian (how likely is that??) cows would only be seen in zoos. Not so, they would merely stop breeding them at the levels they do today and maybe we would see something different on the scene.. other than fresian cows, and pink piggies. There are many many varieties of these creatures which might just be given a chance. If there are fewer of them perhaps the pigs, goats and turkeys would have a chance of a more natural existance.


The world isnt going to become vegetarian overnight and the risk of 'farmed' animals becoming extinct as a result of vegetarian lifestyles is pretty low.. if not non existant.

[Imaginos]

Sheryl, can I ask...what do you feed your cat?

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Garden Carpet

I cant agree with that Gill, my mother used to argue with me that if everyone became vegetarian (how likely is that??) cows would only be seen in zoos. Not so, they would merely stop breeding them at the levels they do today and maybe we would see something different on the scene.. other than fresian cows, and pink piggies. There are many many varieties of these creatures which might just be given a chance. If there are fewer of them perhaps the pigs, goats and turkeys would have a chance of a more natural existance.


The world isnt going to become vegetarian overnight and the risk of 'farmed' animals becoming extinct as a result of vegetarian lifestyles is pretty low.. if not non existant.

but you're argument surely is that everyone should be vegetarian and even if this didn't happen overnight eventually there would be no widespread livestock........

[Lincs Yellowbelly]

I was using an extreme point to kind of counteract what i consider to be extreme views, that eating animals is cruel. I'm fine with people having a view that they want to be veggie or whatever, what i don't like is in a round about way being told that eating meat is cruel because IMO it's natural for humans to eat meat

In my opinion it's giving human traits to animals is where the problem starts

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Imaginos

Sheryl, can I ask...what do you feed your cat?

Yeah sure, I feed my 5 cats Hills or Royal Canin dry food and yes it does contain meat products. Its perfectly logical since cats are carnivors and don't have a choice in what they are able to eat. As a concequence I dont have a choice in what I can feed them on either.

It's possible for a dog to do well on a special vegetarian diet but not a cat. Not for me to impose that on them either.

Absolutes are rarely possible in life. I have a choice myself so I make it for myself. I'm not on a mission to change everyones eating habits. Just expressing a view as I see and feel it

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

... it's natural for humans to eat meat

Agreed. It is indeed.

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

In my opinion it's giving human traits to animals is where the problem starts

Couldn't disagree more. The problem is too great a fear of anthropomorphism. They may not think in the same manner or perceive the world in the same way as we do but close contact with a wide range of animals has taught me that their emotions are not so unlike our own.

[Earth Hart]

When I lived in Brighton, my cats were very lucky as a friend worked in the abattoir & regularly brought me an ox liver or heart & other joints, and with the fish market hard, on the seafront, we all eat well. Fresh flesh.

The cats always knew when fresh meat was on the menu as out came the steel & knife, the sound of me sharpening the knife brought them running.

[Garden Carpet]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

but you're argument surely is that everyone should be vegetarian and even if this didn't happen overnight eventually there would be no widespread livestock........

No, not at all, am merely pointing out that in the unlikly event of everyone becoming vegetarian there wouldnt be a danger to the animals we currently farm.. the massive breeding programmes there are now would be phased out over time. As I eat meat, I can hardly be an advocate for vegetarianism. I was just attempting (perhaps not very well) to say that the 'farm' animals wouldnt dissapear and maybe more varieties would be around. Just maybe. Perhaps that is a rather simplistic view. I hope not

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Lincs Yellowbelly

In my opinion it's giving human traits to animals is where the problem starts

I promise I'm not being provocative here but what is thats lead you to believe that they are so unlike us? Its playing on my mind because its perplexing me.

I ask simply because to me it seems obvious that most animals experience/express the same emotions as we do, especially if you observe them carefully. With no intention to cause offence to anyone, we are are we not, simply advanced Apes ourselves after all?