Vegetarian?

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Regardless of the vegan issues, the real reason for intensive and excessive farming is over population. For us to return to the environmental condition of three hundred years ago (and perhaps for long term survival) we need to significantly reduce the human population.

I do agree that over-population is a major challenge to the natural environment, but it's by no means the only cause of intensive farming. Another cause would be the Common Agricultural Policy which provided an incentive for each farmer to produce as much as possible, irrespective of the market's requirements (hence EU food mountains). How do farmers produce more? Well, they either increase the area of land under cultivation by chopping down trees and hedgerows and/or they increase the yield per unit of land by increasing chemical inputs. The CAP is slowly being reformed but the damage has been done.

Matt

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by speckled wood

Regardless of the vegan issues, the real reason for intensive and excessive farming is over population. For us to return to the environmental condition of three hundred years ago (and perhaps for long term survival) we need to significantly reduce the human population.

It maybe contraversial with some people but I totally agree, we do need to significantly reduce the human population. You cant tell me this doesn't scare you? Just watch those numbers clocking up! Change the dates and see the increase from just yesterday!

In all seriousness thats why I chose not to have children myself. Its natural to have families and we love them but we should all be thinking about just how many children we (each of us) have, for the sake of their futures too.

[speckled wood]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

I do agree that over-population is a major challenge to the natural environment, but it's by no means the only cause of intensive farming. Another cause would be the Common Agricultural Policy which provided an incentive for each farmer to produce as much as possible, irrespective of the market's requirements (hence EU food mountains). How do farmers produce more? Well, they either increase the area of land under cultivation by chopping down trees and hedgerows and/or they increase the yield per unit of land by increasing chemical inputs. The CAP is slowly being reformed but the damage has been done.

Matt

It has to be ironical that the location in North Shropshire where the Silver-studded Blue Butterfly still survives is surrounded by former aircraft hangars now used as "Intervention Stores for Food Mountains". Ironic also that the greatest threat to the Butterflies's long term survival there is gradual and insidious encroachment of agriculture on its remnant heathland (former airforce runway).

[matt_xyz]

well, this is where the vegetarian argument has some appeal (I am a long term veggie by the way). The area of land required to provide a veggie diet is significantly less than that required to provide a carnivorous diet. To provide humans with x calories from meat requires significantly more calories of animal feed. I believe a very large proportion of arable crops in the UK are for animal feed.

Matt

[Gill Catton]

I'm not a veggie, though rarely bother with meat in currys or pasta sauces because often the flavour is almost lost anyway - unless you use Lamb.
When I do eat meat, I buy free range and or organic meat, I think it's probably more proactive to support those producing meat (and veg) ethically than it is to totally abstain.......Though having said all that I am a total hypocrite as I love the battered sin that is KFC (oh I wish they did free range KFC).......
Other than that failing, I try to eat better quality ethically produced meat - spend more and eat it less often or make it go further (lamb chops into a stew or curry that lasts days rather than as chops which only last a meal)....

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

... love the battered sin that is KFC (oh I wish they did free range KFC)...

Oh if only they did Quorn with that coating *drool*.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Oh if only they did Quorn with that coating *drool*.

or even just naked veg I bet veg tempura (though I know that it wouldn't then be tempura) with that KFC coating would also be pretty special........

Hey maybe this is the way to my first million!!!!!

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Imaginos

I do think its vaguely amusing that the soya revolution has caused most of the Argentine rainforest to be destroyed...

Apparently, 95% of global soyabean production is for animal feed. It's therefore not entirely fair to blame vegetarians for this rainforest destruction

Matt

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Yeah this in combination with people eating more deer would be great!!

With you on that Gill. I do like fillet of venison with a juniper & garlic sauces. This is getting my juices flowing.

There's a problem with vegies, methane Be they cattle or human, they add to the GHGs.

[Earth Hart]

Originally Posted by Gill Catton

Yeah this in combination with people eating more deer would be great!!

With you on that Gill. I do like fillet of venison with a juniper & garlic sauce. This is getting my juices flowing.

There's a problem with vegies, methane Be they cattle or human,they add to the GHGs.

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

There's a problem with vegies, methane Be they cattle or human,they add to the GHGs.

I don't think there are any serious claims that veggies emit more methane than meat-eaters. Livestock are a contributor to methane emissions, and there would presumably be fewer livestock around in a veggie world.

Anyway, when it comes to climate change methane is the least of our worries.

Matt

[glsammy]

By the way, most of this has all been said before in :Veggie or Meat Eater?

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by glsammy

By the way, most of this has all been said before in :Veggie or Meat Eater?

well spotted Graham, I thought I had a feeling of deja vu

Matt

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Imaginos

And vegetarians don't contribute to intensive farming? How about all those British species that rely on (farm) animal dung to survive? Or the pastoral habitat in general-not sure many of our upland plants or some of our orchids would survive without grazing for example.
I do think its vaguely amusing that the soya revolution has caused most of the Argentine rainforest to be destroyed...

Here we go, blame vegetarians for everything even though we are trying to make a compassionate choice and people strangely get offended by that. I personally did not ask anyone to go and cut down the rainforest for soya, soya is put in animal feeds and meat products too. I don't eat a great deal of the stuff. You'll find that a huge amount of rainforest has been destroyed for cattle (Dewhurst butchers / Mcdonalds etc etc) Intensive farming IS hugely detrimental. Small scale farming may be able to co-exist alongside nature and they may be used to benefit each other. With this huge population, farming is rarely sustainable..there aren't nice little small-holdings anymore. Yes a lot of species are reliant on grazing but farm animals were only domesticised fairly recently on the timescale so what was it like before then, mostly woodland, anyway that doesn't give us the right to cart these poor creatures off to the abbatoir. I could live with people killing a wild animal as humanely as possible if they were starving but we do not need meat to live. Vegetarians live longer, healthier lives. I just can't see how in this day an age, the murder of an animal to feed greedy stomachs is justifiable.

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by matt_xyz

Apparently, 95% of global soyabean production is for animal feed. It's therefore not entirely fair to blame vegetarians for this rainforest destruction

Matt

Here here... animal feed for meat eaters to eat the animals...totally insustainable vicious circle

[honeybee]

Originally Posted by Earth Hart

With you on that Gill. I do like fillet of venison with a juniper & garlic sauces. This is getting my juices flowing.

There's a problem with vegies, methane Be they cattle or human, they add to the GHGs.

I find that really offensive, it's a myth, total rubbish, cows infact contribute a lot of methane ...red meat eaters insides are not as healthy as veggies

[Owl-Light]

Gonna quote myself here

Originally Posted by Sheryl LaBouchardiere

Its an emotive subject I too have seen similar threads deteriorate into foolish arguments. Silly innit? Best not to joke about it some folk are very sensitive.

Seriously my friends, lets not go down that road, eh.

[honeybee]

sorry, also like to add that the dairy industry is pretty cruel too and supports the meat industry. Organic dairy farming has much better standards of animal welfare. If you've ever seen a cow parted with it's day old calf (which if male is often killed) it's heartbreaking. These animals do have feelings. Had a pet lamb once and it was the most loving and loyal little fellow and very intelligent. I think we are conditioned from an early age to what is acceptable even if it's wrong and I'm very fortunate that my parents were already vegie. As I wasn't used to the sight or smell of meat when I saw or smelled it I would be sick. What angers me is that most parents don't tell their child where their food is from, they don't even realise what they're eating.

Sorry Sheryl, but if asked I get very passionate about it...there's a lot of suffering going on that people ignore.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by honeybee

there aren't nice little small-holdings anymore.

ACL - ACountryLife.Com - Smallholding & Self-Sufficiency for the 21st Century
lots of lovely small holders here

[honeybee]

I'm more familiar with huge swathes of barren land, over-sprayed with hedges grubbed out/trees felled, as was said above, a result of the CAP

[chunkychambers]

I thought the decimation of the rain forests was in the main due to the timber being required by the construction industries around the world, particularly the hardwoods??

I'm probably wrong

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

I thought the decimation of the rain forests was in the main due to the timber being required by the construction industries around the world, particularly the hardwoods??

I'm probably wrong

I would imagine it's a combination of these things.......

[matt_xyz]

Originally Posted by chunkychambers

I thought the decimation of the rain forests was in the main due to the timber being required by the construction industries around the world, particularly the hardwoods??

I'm probably wrong

it depends what region we're talking about. In South East Asia, logging is the principle cause of deforestation. But in South America the main cause is so-called slash and burn cultivators i.e. small scale farmers cutting down trees in order to earn a living from the land. Then you also have logging, the clearance of the land to grow cash crops and to raise cattle and opening up the forest for mining, roads etc. These things are all pretty hard to quantify and estimates do vary, but the above is a rough generalisation.

Also, it's worth pointing out that even in S.E. Asia, the majority of logging is to feed domestic demand (and China) rather than exports to the developed world. Finally, it's worth noting that tropical timber is only a small proportion of global timber production. It's a bit of a myth to assume that the majority of wood and paper products come from rainforests.

Matt

[Owl-Light]

Originally Posted by honeybee

Sorry Sheryl, but if asked I get very passionate about it...there's a lot of suffering going on that people ignore.

I know hun, thats why I'm vegetarian too.

Farming methods are more to blame than meat eaters though. Like I say it is a natural thing for us to eat meat even if many of us are moved enough not to want to. We have all have that choice and for many its undeniable that meat just tastes really good and satisfies a primal instinct probably too.

That said I think a lot of people just don't or can't make the connection to really sense pain and loss in other species. Thats less of a criticism than just a plain fact. Maybe they don't want to open themselves up to that. Its hard to blame them in a way, it's a cruelly cutting experience when you do.

Emotional distance between the species is also an ingrained attutude of our culture in the west. It didn't help that the Christian tradition asserts than animals don't have souls. Now whether you believe people have them or not is another matter but it drew a line of demarkation between 'us and them'.

Then came Descartes who asserted that animals don't have feelings or couldn't even feel pain... Even now News casters ocasionally announce with amazement that scientific studies have 'proved' that cats - for example - can feel embarrised. Makes you want to shout "WELL, D'UH!" if you've lived with a cat for five minutes.

Personally, I'm not evangelistic about Vegetarianism or anything else for that matter. I do think meat eaters should realise that Vegetarians get sensitive because they care very deeply and Vegetarians should realise too that eating meat is natural to the species, nature gave us canines and all...

Its not a contest. A discuss