To kill or not to kill?

[jezlee]

I have just been having a conversation on another thread regarding killing specimens for definite identification, using microscopic (or hand lens) investigation of such things as genitalia etc.

I, for one, don't want to take my interest to this degree .... if I can identify what I see from photographs and descriptions of habitat, food, time of year etc, then all well and good, but if I can't then it will just have to be the ubiquitous "XXXX sp." label for me!

I'd be interested to hear other members' views on this topic ....

[scholesy]

I'm with you on this one.

If you have an interest in nature and wild animals then surely greater enjoyment can be had from experiencing them in their natural habitat engaging in their natural behaviour. Not on a slide or with a pin through them.

Whats the point?

We all like to know what it is we have seen but if a species has to be killed in order to confirm an ID then it sort of defeats the objective of enjoying the creature in the first place.

i'm not bothered about the latin name of some spider enough to go to those lengths.

The majority of us aren't biologists but just interested laymen who have a passion for wildlife.

[Alan]

I would say it’s necessary if you’re involved in a research program, and a particular group of species requires dead specimens to further our knowledge of the species (only to be done by the ‘experts’ in my opinion).

Some species are bred for study and collecting – Butterflies for example, so this is better than taking them from the wild.

I can understand that it’s needed in some circumstances if a very rare specimen is found for example, so the record can be verified by the specimen in question being sent to the relevant authority.

I wouldn’t kill anything taken from the wild for my own personal study. I’m not specialized in any one area for me to warrant doing this.

Specimens that are found dead, and skulls, wings etc are always worth collecting and preparing. Photos and drawings also serve my purposes. Though that’s a different matter.

[Ollie]

I would never kill any species of insect, etc just for an ID, although I like to ID everything I take a photograph of the most important aspect of my interest in wildlife is being out there and enjoying, observing it in it's natural environement. In my opinion there is no justification in killing anything for ID purposes. All creatures great or small have a right to life just as we have.
Roger

[Tormentil]

Originally Posted by Alan

I can understand that it’s needed in some circumstances if a very rare specimen is found for example, so the record can be verified by the specimen in question being sent to the relevant authority.

Does n't that make it even rarer ??

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by scholesy

I'm with you on this one.

If you have an interest in nature and wild animals then surely greater enjoyment can be had from experiencing them in their natural habitat engaging in their natural behaviour. Not on a slide or with a pin through them.

Whats the point?

We all like to know what it is we have seen but if a species has to be killed in order to confirm an ID then it sort of defeats the objective of enjoying the creature in the first place.

i'm not bothered about the latin name of some spider enough to go to those lengths.

The majority of us aren't biologists but just interested laymen who have a passion for wildlife.

Thanks, Scholesy (Man Utd fan by any chance? ) ... I can only agree with everything you said ...

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by Alan

I would say it’s necessary if you’re involved in a research program, and a particular group of species requires dead specimens to further our knowledge of the species (only to be done by the ‘experts’ in my opinion).

Some species are bred for study and collecting – Butterflies for example, so this is better than taking them from the wild.

I can understand that it’s needed in some circumstances if a very rare specimen is found for example, so the record can be verified by the specimen in question being sent to the relevant authority.

I wouldn’t kill anything taken from the wild for my own personal study. I’m not specialized in any one area for me to warrant doing this.

Specimens that are found dead, and skulls, wings etc are always worth collecting and preparing. Photos and drawings also serve my purposes. Though that’s a different matter.

I think I would have to agree with you on the research point, Alan ... IF it furthers research into a particular species and has a knock-on effect in terms of maintaining the species' population (especially if in decline) or habitat for the future, then I can see the moral argument in the killing of a few specimens, but, as you say, only by relevant experts in that field.

I enjoy my "collecting" of specimens via photographic means and am personally very pleased that this method, by and large (for the amateur) has superceded the old "kill 'em and pin 'em" brigade .....

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by Tormentil

Does n't that make it even rarer ??

You have a point there, Ben ....

[scholesy]

Man Utd (i can barely bring myself to type that) fan me ....No way Jose.

For my sins i support Leeds Utd. The only real United.

Come on you White Wizards!!!!!!

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Tormentil

Does n't that make it even rarer ??

Yes it does I suppose, but it's often the only way to get the record verified. At least then some protection may be attributed to the area in question, so measures can be put in place to help them.

We cant help them until we know they're there! Which may unfortunately involve the collection of a specimen.

I think it's fair to say, most of what we are discussing refers in the main to the particulary difficult insect group.

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by scholesy

Man Utd (i can barely bring myself to type that) fan me ....No way Jose.

For my sins i support Leeds Utd. The only real United.

Come on you White Wizards!!!!!!

Leeds?? With a name like yours??

Still, it could be worse – I'm a Wolves fan ....

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by Alan

Yes it does I suppose, but it's often the only way to get the record verified. At least then some protection may be attributed to the area in question, so measures can be put in place to help them.

We cant help them until we know they're there! Which may unfortunately involve the collection of a specimen.

I think it's fair to say, most of what we are discussing refers in the main to the particulary difficult insect group.

You're not telling me you find insects difficult to identify, Alan??

I don't believe it ....

[Alan]

Originally Posted by jezlee

You're not telling me you find insects difficult to identify, Alan??

I don't believe it ....

Without 'The' books yes!

Anyway can you stop it please, this is a serious topic! In fact it's about time you came up with a decent thread for a change

SeriousAl

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by Ollie

I would never kill any species of insect, etc just for an ID, although I like to ID everything I take a photograph of the most important aspect of my interest in wildlife is being out there and enjoying, observing it in it's natural environement. In my opinion there is no justification in killing anything for ID purposes. All creatures great or small have a right to life just as we have.
Roger

Probably should have added that as others have mentioned there can be justification if it is to help research into a rare or endangered species etc and it is done by a competent person in this field. My reply was that I would never do this myself
Roger

[Wild-Woman]

Killing for id is a pretty Victorian method. With all the techno stuff, billion pixel cameras, observation skills, habitat, I should think today DNA from a little old ants dribble would be enough. A last resort method in my view-but that's mine. Julie

[Alan]

Just a further thought!

Considering the amount of chemicals produced specifically for the elimination of insects, whether it’s in the home or in agriculture for example, the taking of a few specimens for study doesn’t count for much does it?

[Dan Salter]

So what about this kind of thing ( see link) http://www.insectcompany.com/gallery/fulgorid.shtml

that you see for sale on ebay?
From what i read they are bred for collecting is this a good or bad thing? cruel?

Ill be honest i have been tempted by some of the framed insects i have seen on ebay but so far have not acted upon my temptaion cant decide if its wrong or not?

[canonman]

Think there are many strong feelings on this subject, but I personally would have to agree with the research point.
ONLY if it was to benefit the species would it be ok to kill and for no other reason.
I enjoy wildlife just were it is in it’s natural environment, and get my enjoyment from taking pictures, looking and recording.
People who collect just to make a collection ie butterflies and put in draws, sorry I cannot understand. I think this should be banned ( not sure if it is ) like egg collecting
Mick

[jezlee]

Originally Posted by Dan Salter

So what about this kind of thing ( see link) http://www.insectcompany.com/gallery/fulgorid.shtml

that you see for sale on ebay?
From what i read they are bred for collecting is this a good or bad thing? cruel?

Ill be honest i have been tempted by some of the framed insects i have seen on ebay but so far have not acted upon my temptaion cant decide if its wrong or not?

I don't agree with it, full stop ... I can fully understand the attraction of collecting anything, but with the advent of digital photography, it's so easy to go out and take photos of things and build up a "collection" that way, and, as was said earlier, you gain all the enjoyment of being outside, in the fresh air, and observing these wonderful living things going about their business in their natural habitats. I think this sort of thing can only contribute eventually to the decline of species numbers in the long run, especially when "rarities" are being offered for sale ....

[Dan Salter]

Yes ..as i said i havent bought any insects ...i thought about it and couldnt decide if it was cruel or damaging so i didnt act on it....i admit they are beautiful and look beautiful framed but i much prefer to be out in the field trying to catch record and release or photograph them.

[Wild-Woman]

If I see a rare insect/plant etc, I'm also careful about exactly reporting it's whereabouts on a forum like this incase some nutcase goes there to collect a sample etc. As for mounted insects-no way. There's enough books, photo's etc of them. If something is found dead then fair enough, but killing for mounting-yuk! Sorry to be blunt.

[Ollie]

Originally Posted by Wild-Woman

If I see a rare insect/plant etc, I'm also careful about exactly reporting it's whereabouts on a forum like this incase some nutcase goes there to collect a sample etc. As for mounted insects-no way. There's enough books, photo's etc of them. If something is found dead then fair enough, but killing for mounting-yuk! Sorry to be blunt.

Well said Julie, I agree completely
Roger

[canonman]

Julie I agree with what you say about reporting something rare on the forum., don’t think I would.
But don’t you think it sad that a forum like ours would have to resort to that
All our members are keen on the environment and wildlife and would be deprived of seeing a rare thing for the sake of a few bad people to be polite.
Mick

[Wild-Woman]

I just like to be safe than sorry though Mick. I would hate to have been the one to a fed someone, outside of our members, information about a rare species. I think I'm right in saying that it can be read by a non member, they just can't post, am I right??

julie

[Alan]

I suppose I have an open mind on the collecting thing.

I personally don’t have too much of a problem with butterfly collection per say, as long as the specimens are bred in captivity. It is legal, whether you agree with it of not.

I suppose you could say it will increase the likelihood of illegal collecting of wild specimens, but the fact that many specimens can be obtained quite easily and cheaply should prevent this.

Put it this way, knowing that someone collected butterflies (captive bred), wouldn’t stop me from associating with them. I can think of far worse hobbies.