Roadkill-a question

[Wild-Woman]

I've seen lots of dead foxes on the roads where I live.Only seen 1 Badger a couple of weeks back-but absolutely no Hedgehogs for ages.Either the Hedgehogs understand the roads or sadly and more likely I would say-a drastically reduced population of them in North Kent.

[Lou-D]

Originally Posted by Alan

....would you believe some of the ferrets I used to keep as a kid could be quite crafty

As a current ferret keeper, I completely agree that ferrets are crafty - and very amusing with it!

Where I live out in the sticks we don't get Badgers, but we do get the occasional dead Fox and Hedgehog on the main road. We mainly seem to get dead birds round here. Perhaps our local foxes and Hedgehogs have the 'green cross code' genes?

[catalaze]

Back to evolution for a moment!

There are terrifically awful maths involved in sorting out the value of selection and the likelihood of genetic changes becoming normal in a population. However, the chance of a favourable mutation arising that could cope with this situation are so small as to be almost invisible on such a short time scale as 100y - and the selection pressure hasn't actually been great for that long.

Quite apart from the likelihood, or even feasibility, of such molecular changes occurring, I wonder what sort of a trait we are actually considering? An animal that avoids roads? Roads are everywhere. An animal that stays in a small area? That would be such a complete change of behaviour, and would likely spell doom (d o o m). A faster animal? Cheetah? One that avoids cars? It is probably too late for avoidance once one appears. As for an animal that can fly off ...

When you see a Fox, unless it is really relaxed , it disappears almost instantly. Badgers, as has been noted, seem completely disoriented by cars and tend to run on ahead. Very different behaviours. Badgers, incidentally, tend to give up running and dodge away to the side if you turn your ENGINE off, as well as your lights.

I don't know why, nor do I know if the research which suggested that simple relationship between roadkills and overall mortality is at all accurate. I suspect not as it seems too simplistic.

So: I don't think it likely that such a genetic (heritable) change as car avoidance could arise swiftly (or perhaps, at all) because of the huge change in behaviour (and perhaps physiology) being considered.

Also, foxes may simply be foraging, whereas Badgers may be dispersing. I have a feeling that one age and sex of Badgers tends to leave the family sett to find a new one - this avoids inbreeding. It may have been young females. If so, then inexperience could add to their mortality. However I don't personally have any evidence to say that dead Badgers outnumber dead foxes on the roads - but I'll start counting!

[matt_xyz]

I have certainly noticed an increased number of dead Badgers in my area (Leicestershire) relative to foxes. Until a couple of years ago I rarely saw dead Badgers. I can only assume they have increased in numbers in my area.

Matt

[nightshade]

The disposal of Badger carcases by people who just do not want them on their land
so use the roads to destroy evidence has been mentioned before
I do see more Badger carcases than i used to ,Fox is definitely trailing and deer are fairly
infrequent at the moment.
Corvids I have noticed that if there is agroup of birds feeding most run/hop back to the verge but there is always one which breaks right, this is invariably the one which is squished
Concerning Sheep,Henrya is correct, I heard of a landlord who frequently drove in areas where sheep roam on roads and the most frequent meat on the menu was..........

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by nightshade

The disposal of Badger carcases by people who just do not want them on their land so use the roads to destroy evidence has been mentioned before

If it was just people who dont want them on their land it wouldnt be so bad, the problem with baiting now is that it has become and organised crime betting thing with Badgers being dug and held captive for the repellent "sport" even from areas where they are welcome,

Landowners are often powerless or fearful of intervening, a warden I know has been shot with a shot gun while trying to prevent a dig (28 pellets in the arm) whilst many other people I know have recieved threats as a result of trying to protect their local Badgers.

Thankfully its not all bad news as the OC link has led to police taking it more seriously nand recently several digging rings being broken up and prosecuted. If you want to know more about the history of this kind of thing I can highly recomend "baiting the trap" by tony Sherbourne (I think) undercover officer for the RSPCA, and also "out of the darkness" by Chris Ferris. The national federation of Badger groups website http://www.nfbg.org.uk/ is also worth a look.

[emf]

Talking of the craftiness/cunning of foxes, how do they know about live rails or do they just watch a load of their chums die and then decide 'maybe I won't follow them?'.

I was working in London last year and used to catch the infamous Northern Line to and from Colindale. I would regularly see a Fox sloping along the side of the tracks. It never once crossed them. How did it know not to cross the track?

[Alan]

Originally Posted by eeyore

If you want to know more about the history of this kind of thing I can highly recomend "baiting the trap" by tony Sherbourne (I think) undercover officer for the RSPCA, and also "out of the darkness" by Chris Ferris. The national federation of Badger groups website http://www.nfbg.org.uk/ is also worth a look.

Speaking of Chris Ferris, there are a couple of books of hers in the Recommended Mammal Books section that I added. A must read for anyone interested in Badgers and other nocturnal animals. The name Chris Ferris is an alias, to protect her identity from Badger baiters and alike!

http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/br...d_mammal_books

By the way, have you heard of her ww? The books were of her night-time adventures in your part of the country in Kent.

[arvensis]

I work on the railway and I quite often see foxes by the lineside - the outskirts of London is quite good for them.

In one day last month, I saw 3 sets of Vixens and cubs! As for crossing the line, I've never seen them try it.

As for Badgers, I often see them, a victim of being 'juiced up' (electrocuted by the third rail)

Mark

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Alan

Speaking of Chris Ferris, there are a couple of books of hers in the Recommended Mammal Books section that I added. A must read for anyone interested in Badgers and other nocturnal animals. The name Chris Ferris is an alias, to protect her identity from Badger baiters and alike!

http://www.wildaboutbritain.co.uk/br...d_mammal_books

By the way, have you heard of her ww? The books were of her night-time adventures in your part of the country in Kent.

The darkness is light enough iis an excellent book for Badger lovers - it tells of her adventures largely before the baiting got out of hand as related in out of the darkness.

Ive actually met her, and was aware of the alias - obviously not going to post her real name here. Gutsy lady to take those oooooooos on on her own.

see this link for a complete list of her books http://www.bookkoob.co.uk/books-by/chris+ferris.htm

Another Badger book whhich is very good is "Badgers of punchbowl farm" and "Wild valley" about nightime adventures with Badgers in sussex - can't remember who by though. (edit - these two are by monica edwards)

[Alan]

Originally Posted by eeyore

see this link for a complete list of her books http://www.bookkoob.co.uk/books-by/chris+ferris.htm

Thanx for that link. I have all the ones upto 'Green Eyed Flo'. At the end of that book she moves to Scotland, but I wasn't aware of 'Beneath the Dark Hill' - her latest book

Alan

[BFly]

In response to the railway "juicing" question:

It comes again down to a difference in natural behaviour -

foxes are natually very timid and readilly adapt their foraging routes/habits to avoid things that arouse their natural fears. Badgers on the other hand, are very faithful to their foraging routes and are rather inflexable in any disturbances to them. They will also readilly squeeze, claw and gnaw their way through/under low branches/fallen trees/fences/live cables (unfortunately) in a brave attempt to follow their foraging paths.

Concerning the road kill question i think that there are a number of behavioural traits that favour the foxes survival over that of the Badger when faced with a rapidly approaching set of headlights.

Foxes are:

much more agile and can leap/sprint to safety.
often more alert to their surroundings (though not always) probably due to their overall closer contact with humans.
brighter, higher and more obvious to drivers.

Badgers are:

Slower to react and physically slower to respond.
More likely to "ignore" roads as a hazard if they cross one of their established routes.
Less conditioned to the dangers of humans and their contraptions.
Darker, very close to the road.
When the young males leave the families they often travel long distances over completely unfamiliar terrain and this is when they are most vulnerable.

As a cautionary note for all fellow country drivers - the most likely place to meet an unfortunate Badger is on a road between open fileds and woodland. This is true for most animals but Badgers in particular. I believe that Badgers will also take carrion if normal food is scarce ie. in long dry spells as mentioned previously. This is not a very safe idea for an animal who is not used to such a dangerous game of "chicken!"

In Scotland we have over 2000 Badger deaths on the roads and they are not as common as they are in england so i would assume that the number is several times that.

I would think that there has definitely not been enough time for an genetic trait to evolve that would help either species avoid roads. This process takes a millenia and the roads haven't been as busy as they are now for long enough. I would also think that a "road avoidance behaviour" gene would not be a positive enough trait for natural selection to favour it.

Eventually, a genetic behavioural trait scuh as that could lead to the extinction of both animals as a huge proportion of the UK will be covered by roads and the habitat fragmentation would make home ranges far too small between roads for them to survive without crossing them. (happy thought to end on-sorry!)

Phew! Didn't mean to write this much. Very interesting topic.

Hope this helps! - feel free to comment if my sources are incorrect-i am new to the forum please be kind!

Ben

P.S There is none so crafty as a cunning Badger! Anyone who has seen them drag bedding for half a km along a path backwards only to then disappear straight down their hole without looking (or bruising a wiry haired posterior) could not fail to be amazed!

[Alan]

Who was that masked man!??

.........It was BFly Man

Good post Ben..

[BFly]

My wings are like a shield of steel, man.

[BFly]

My wings are like a shield of steel, man.

[BFly]

That was so funny i had to say it twice! No, seriously, my internet connection seems to have a life of its own. A thousand pardons.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by eeyore

I can highly recomend "baiting the trap" by tony Sherbourne (I think) undercover officer for the RSPCA

That should be tony saunders folks (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0...lance&n=266239 ) - tony sherbourne wrote a book about Pine Martens , sorry for the junior moment,