Help - Guns in Public?

[Surrey Sam]

Evening fellow WAB'ers, I have a scenario which I need to run past people with how best to go about it.

Recently I have been noticing fewer animals and birds in my local haunt even the brazen ones such as crows and magpies, this area is a council owned public park/heath land.

About a week or so back I noticed some intact animal entrails with no body to be found which look to have been butchered from a carcass rather than a wild animal such as a Fox leaving them, this I found very odd, it was located by an entrance to the public area where cars can be parked although they shouldn't as it is a private driveway. I have also witnessed a Labrador dog running back at the weekend to its owner complete with dead pigeon in mouth, the owner had no hunting equipment and looked to be a normal dog walker; again I was some what surprised.

This led me onto this afternoon where I took the dog for a walk at this public area as I usually do, upon walking down this private road previously mentioned to access the public place I noticed there was a small white van which I've seen parked here on a few occasions in the last couple of months as it always blocks one gate. I walked past the van and there was a note on the window which was from the owner of the house that uses the road; the note was asking the vehicle owner to not park in this place as it was private and not permitted whilst also semi blocking access to their property.

Whilst walking past I couldn’t help but notice a cage inside, so I peered in through the back door windows and the cage was a medium sized dog cage, but to the side of that I spied a rifle soft case that looked empty. My suspicions were now heightened as I ran through my mind what had been happening recently. I therefore shortened my route so that I could get the dog home and return back before sun down. As I returned and walked down the private road I saw two guys and a couple of jack russels returning towards the van (perfect timing), as I walked past the characters one was carrying a rifle hard case over his shoulder and the other was trying to put a rifle into the van before I got level with them. As I passed, I bid them good day and continued out of sight.

Now I’m sure that whatever these guys were doing I would presume that they weren’t up to any good, but I like to exhaust all avenues before pointing that condemning finger. I had previously resisted the urge to ring the police straight away as I wasn’t up to speed on what was legal and what was not, I didn’t fancy wasting police time. So I took note of the vehicle and registration and I thought I’d go home and investigate what you can do regarding fire arms in public. Now my limited investigation tonight tells me that what they were doing was illegal, unless they had specific aulthorisation which in this case would be from the local authority to shoot pest birds/animals to control infestation. I also took the liberty to vehicle check the registration which matches the make and model of the van, but when I ran it through an online insurance check database the vehicle came back as not insured, the insurance aspect is not guarantied but all the cars in my road came back as being insured. Interesting I thought.

So I’m now left at a point deliberating on what to do next. My motivation for doing this is that wildlife I believe is suffering, the guns are being carried in a public place, the guns are being used where not permitted. I will contact the local council tomorrow to speak with the local warden and ask if anyone has permission to shoot on the land in question, as I feel that these guys may return again and I’m sure I’ll be able to find the car again. If I do and there is evidence of the gun case in the back then I would be inclined to call the police out.

What are your views and opinions on this?

[naturelover]

hi surrey sam,welcome to the site,you look like you have come across some dodgy blokes there by the sounds of it,but i am affraid i cant help you as i dont know enough about the law myself,but you will get an answer in due course,hope you enjoy wab.

[tigger]

I recon the best thing is to contact the council, see if they permit shooting (which I doubt) and then either pass the information about the van reg to them, or better still (as you then know they will get it!) pass the reg to the police. If you have any worries about wanting to stay anonomous you could always call "crime stoppers". The one thing I WOULDN'T do is approach them yourself. I've had trouble with people getting into my back garden and setting fire to stuff, and the police have been very helpful - even arranging to drive past at certain times (which deters people pretty quickly). I'm not much help I'm afraid, but good luck! and let us know what happens!

Jane

[kml]

I would contact the police if they are genuine people doing a job the police should already be aware of the situation as pest control usually notify the police if it is a public area.They shouldn`t be firing in a public place without notices and barriers up.If they are leaving animal remains the chances are they aren`t genuine as this would just add to the pest situation.

[Susie]

I'd tell the Police. I'd tell them that there were a couple of blokes in the woods with guns and you had the registration number of their van if they want it. As to what they have been doing and whether it is something that needs prosecuting I would leave to the Police to decide.

[NickCantle]

Yes, I wouldn't put off calling the Police. Maybe if it was something minor then you could have a valid point for not wanting to waste police time, but a firearm in public of any kind is no minor issue. There seems to be too much information here, albeit unconfirmed, that suggests that these people are up to 'no good'. I would definitely inform the police. Surely it's no coincidence that the facts don't add up. As kml points out most relevantly, if there is authorised activity here involving these people and their firearms, the Police should be in the know regarding the issue. It's a case of better be safe than sorry in my honest opinion. I sincerely hope that whatever path of action you take to solve the dilemma, leads to a positive conclusion.

Good luck and keep us posted,

Nick

[Muggsy]

how about they may be training gun dogs to retrieve game to hand ?

bringing thier own dead pigeons etc firing blanks

just a thought.

[Billy Wobble Dagger]

Inform the police - end of story

BWD

[VinceS]

Inform the police and check if they have a wildlife officer who may take the enquiry further.

Vince

[seamusagleann]

yes without a doubt ,inform the police . i would go in person while ,the descriptions of the vehicle and of the men involved are still fresh in your mind.if indeed these people are responsible i hope they get what they deserve

[Surrey Sam]

Thank you for the warm welcome and all your responses. I will update you on what’s happened in the last two days in a moment.

Tigger – That was my first step to contact the council, I’m sorry to read that you’ve suffered vandalism and hope the police presence has deterred the vandals permanently for you.

KML – There certainly weren’t any signs put up and that is what I would have expected to of seen had some controlled shooting been taken place or even a notice displayed in advance of such a circumstance.

NickCantle – As your balanced response depicts it would be worrying for some, meeting characters such as the ones I saw. However I knew that I wasn’t 100% sure of legalities of carrying such a weapon and being an outdoor hobbyist I felt it only fair to look into such issues before blowing the whistle.

Muggsy – That is the flip side of the coin and is the kind of thing that I wanted to be sure against by looking into things first and not making any rushed decisions.

VinceS – I’m not so sure if our local police would have a wildlife officer as it’s not what I would call the countryside, but it’s certainly worth asking the next police official I speak with.

Seamusagleann – I was carful to ensure that I jotted down everything I could remember when I returned home straight after the event and added anything I’ve since remembered.


Ok so onto reporting what has happened today. I obtained the contact number for the head warden that controls the area, but had to leave a message as the call was not answered. Very shortly after leaving the message the warden returned my call with an alarmed and concerned tone perceived in his voice. I explained what I have mentioned in my opening post on this thread and he took note of these details whilst thanking me for my concise and accurate notes. He explained that yes pest control does take place on the some 1100 acres under his control, but it is predominantly undertaken by him and his team which has not been recently around the times that I have seen these people. When it has been carried out, it has been usually carried out around the witching hour onwards, where human activity is almost non existent to ensure safety and minimal alarm.

From what I described the warden was sure that the people were in his words ‘armed trespassing’ and that with that breed of dog they were probably after Rabbits, although he was very concerned about the Badger set located close to where I saw these characters. I tried to re-assure him that I’d seen a pair of Badgers at the set two days previously (after finding the entrails) so was confident they had not been the target of these people’s actions. The warden still decided that a visit to the area tomorrow would be in order to settle his mind and he urged me to report it to the police, he said that he would report the incident too, through his liaison officer, but it would be better if I also did it separately. His parting words were that if I should ever see them again, I should almost certainly ring the police and himself straight away whilst being careful not to endanger myself at all.

It was refreshing to talk with a like minded individual who was very professional yet easy to talk with. I quickly rung the local police who weren’t as amiable as they were a little perplexed as to why it took 48 hours to report this incident to them. After explaining my chain of thought and how I went about this, they began to understand, although they said that next time I should just call them to do the ‘asking questions part’ as it wouldn’t have been a waste of their time – oh well I know for next time now. The police official I spoke with took down all the details and said that they would pass it on immediately to their intelligence officer, who would then most likely contact me to discuss it a little further.

So that is really the long and short of this and brings you all up to date so far; rest assured, if there is any further progress or news I shall update here accordingly.

Thanks for reading.
Sam

[naturelover]

hi sam good on you for following this through,there is far too much of this sort of thing going on and it wants wipeing out.

[Pat]

Surrey police have got a wildlife officer, I've had dealings with him in the past, I can't think of his name off hand but he was very helpful, he's based at Ripley police station.

[VinceS]

Well done Sam for following up on the incident. Hopefully all your observations and information will lead to action against these people if they are breaking the law - the more servere the better.

[astraman]

well first of all its not illegal to carry a gun in a case in public so unless you saw it out there not commiting any crime this piece of land does it lead to any private land as they may be using this land as a walk through to get to some shooting permission they do have.

alot of shooters will let there dogs carry something back to the car as it prevents them from running off or chasing other birds ect

it certainly wouldnt hurt to make some enquiries into this but dont go thinking that there deffinately doing something wrong. i was once a shooter and must admit i got some nasty looks and bad comments but i ate most things i shot and controlled some pests

[stripee]

but it could equally be an illegal activity such as Badger digging. This occurred last week just a mile away from me. I think if the people are doing something innocent then they have nothing to worry about from the police.

[JeffH]

Well done Sam - I think I'd have done pretty much the same thing myself.

And by the way Vince and Pat, I believe that every British police force now has a Wildlife Liaison officer, albeit some being part-time in that role.

Jeff

[tigger]

Great job Sam. I was just wondering what had happened since January. Have you had any more sightings?

[ron1863]

Originally Posted by Billy Wobble Dagger

Inform the police - end of story

BWD

Agreed 100%. I'm sure the men won't get into trouble if what they were up to was legitimate, but if they are dodgy and don't have a gun license etc. then you will have did the public a service.
Obviously the land owners didn't know them or they wouldn't have left a note on the windshield

[Sparrowlegs]

If it is brought to the attention of the Police then be prepared to make a statement and to ultimately stand across a court room from these men and give evidence to a magistrate. You will also be cross examined by a defending solicitor.

Illegal use of a Firearm can carry 5 yrs in prison.

It can all get very messy and a lot of people will not thank you for your brave efforts.

The end result can also be something of a let down, as even without a gun licence they can get away with just a caution!

I would say to any animal/wildlife enthuisiast to purchase a small camera to have ready when you see something suspicious. This will aide your case if you are asked to appear in court. Never approach them - they are killers!!

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Sparrowlegs

If it is brought to the attention of the Police then be prepared to make a statement and to ultimately stand across a court room from these men and give evidence to a magistrate. You will also be cross examined by a defending solicitor.

Illegal use of a Firearm can carry 5 yrs in prison.

It can all get very messy and a lot of people will not thank you for your brave efforts.

The end result can also be something of a let down, as even without a gun licence they can get away with just a caution!

I would say to any animal/wildlife enthuisiast to purchase a small camera to have ready when you see something suspicious. This will aide your case if you are asked to appear in court. Never approach them - they are killers!!

I am tempted to say don't be so silly, but I won't be so rude. If you inform the police of some activity that concerns you, they will check things out and proceed in their own way. Car plate numbers and so on will help them, don't try and photo them, you are not Hercule Poirot. The chances of this kind of thing coming to court on the firt report are none. The police will gather the evidence to take it to court if they feel it is needed.

Don't be so silly.

[Surrey Sam]

Originally Posted by tigger

Great job Sam. I was just wondering what had happened since January. Have you had any more sightings?

Thank you for your kind words and interest Tigger.

Well since January I have been regularly visiting the area at varying times as I’m trying to follow and photograph the local woodpeckers; having been enchanted and inspired by JeffH’s Kingfisher diary, I really fancy doing something similar with the three species we have locally.

So far I have not seen any evidence of these people visiting the area again which is a relief, I have also noticed in the last 5 weeks that a few deer have returned to the frequent the area. So my gut feeling was that these two chaps were still up to no good and that my close encounter spooked them off my local area. The police never contacted me after I made the call which I can understand, as in hindsight the call to them should’ve been made straight away. I can only assume that the information was noted against the vehicle registration and if the car was then stopped, say in one of those ANPR systems, then the police could search the vehicle and do their work.

Interestingly too, I have seen a lot more of the local wardens carrying out work in the area; so perhaps their presence too has had a positive effect?

All the best.
Sam

[kml]

Great news!! Glad that the animals are starting to use the area and you haven`t had any more encounters with these people.Your call obviously made a difference as like you say the wardens are around more frequently.
Hopefully you won`t have any more problems.

[Sparrowlegs]

Originally Posted by Meta menardi

I am tempted to say don't be so silly, but I won't be so rude. If you inform the police of some activity that concerns you, they will check things out and proceed in their own way. Car plate numbers and so on will help them, don't try and photo them, you are not Hercule Poirot. The chances of this kind of thing coming to court on the firt report are none. The police will gather the evidence to take it to court if they feel it is needed.

Don't be so silly.

You of course would say that though would'nt you?.........seeing as what you are!!

You can breath a sigh of relief though because your friends got away!!.......

[Meta menardi]

Originally Posted by Sparrowlegs

You of course would say that though would'nt you?.........seeing as what you are!!

You can breath a sigh of relief though because your friends got away!!.......

Doh! and me only 300 miles from the place.