Dog Breeds banned from council houses

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by senua

Have not had dogs as a pet but I do think that this legislation is very harsh.
I noticed there is quite a lot of signatures on the petition. Hopefully this will persuade the council to change it's mind.

I read some where they will not back down. But if there is enough pressure they will do a u turn hopefully.

[Kymba]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

Your first picture shows two dogs clearly unleashed in a public space ... you can understand why many people might feel nervous or threatened?
Yes, you'll probably say, "bBt my dogs won't hurt anyone, they're under control." People looking at this from another side might point out how often children (or adults) have been mauled to death by dogs whose owners afterwards say, 'But they'd never been a problem before ... they love people .... '"

However, I'm pleased to hear that you're in favour of chipping and licensing and we certainly need to go along that route ... soon ....

Yes my dogs were unleashed BUT! They were only unleashed because where we were and where we regularly walk them you have a clear view in all directions covering a large area and we only let them off the lead when and only WHEN there is no one in sight in any direction so they can have a free run to burn off some energy (which they need) As soon as we see anyone at all, Other dog walkers (popular dog walking area) Joggers, Walkers, Bike riders or children even in the distance we immediately put them back on their leads. Also they never go more then about 15 foot away from us. They stop and either wait for us to catch up with them or they will turn and come back to us.
Having always had dogs I know that all dogs are capable of biting even the most friendly and obedient well trained dogs. I personally would never forgive myself if My dogs scared or bit anyone.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Kymba

Yes my dogs were unleashed BUT! They were only unleashed because where we were and where we regularly walk them you have a clear view in all directions covering a large area and we only let them off the lead when and only WHEN there is no one in sight in any direction so they can have a free run to burn off some energy (which they need) As soon as we see anyone at all, Other dog walkers (popular dog walking area) Joggers, Walkers, Bike riders or children even in the distance we immediately put them back on their leads. Also they never go more then about 15 foot away from us. They stop and either wait for us to catch up with them or they will turn and come back to us.
Having always had dogs I know that all dogs are capable of biting even the most friendly and obedient well trained dogs. I personally would never forgive myself if My dogs scared or bit anyone.

This clearly show a responsible dog owner. This is the point, like dogs or not every one who owns a dog has a responsibility. So this law is totally out of order. Everyone who lives in council dwellings are irresponsible are they????

[Hobjob]

Originally Posted by gez

I work in theatre & see dog bites every single day.
& because of my love of dogs i always ask which breed bit the person. top of the list is labs & collies, there are often bull breeds .............

Need to be careful with assumptions here.

If, say, 75% of bites are from the "nice" dogs, but they make up
98% of all dogs, then per dog, the bite rate may still be much
higher in the "nasty" dogs -- I don't know, but its easy to
jump to wrong conclusions when only some of the facts
are known. It may of course be the other way round.

Also the severity of the bites may vary - it seems possible that
a mauling by a pit bull might be rather worse than a nip from a
jack-russel. But that also needs proper testing.

It is also very well established that observations such as yours can be
subject to enormous bias - we remember what our prejudices want
us to remember; (and please don't claim that you don't - lots of scientific
disciplines have shown this; sociology, psychology, medicine etc. --
double blind trials were invented to cope with us stupid humans )

Unless you have been writing down the actual numbers, severity, where,
how, what and why etc. etc., then what you think is happening is not
yet establsihed at all ............
However
It has the making of a lovely little study - but do get statistical
help _before_ you start; you may find that the numbers coming through
your department will take 10 years to collect to get to statistical
significance. You may need to include A&E and GPs to get meaningful
results.

Start on a pilot now

good luck - pm if you want advice.

[Paul mabbott]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

Same is true of children .......... often thought that banning some
people from having children would be a good thing

But joking apart, there are far too many new laws and regulations - it
seems so easy for government to add more rules, never to take some away.

One of the problems is that people are so litigious that if rules and regulations are not made (by government departments, local authorities, wjatever) then they are going to be blamed and probably sued .... they also get a lot of pressure from insurance companies ...

You see this at the moment with the government, the water boards, local authorities all being blamed for 'not doing enough about flooding'! How are they supposed to stop it?
Yes, there is one way which is to stop house-building in flood-plains - but then developers and potential houseowners would say, 'Why can't we build where we like?' ...

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Hobjob

Need to be careful with assumptions here.

If, say, 75% of bites are from the "nice" dogs, but they make up
98% of all dogs, then per dog, the bite rate may still be much
higher in the "nasty" dogs -- I don't know, but its easy to
jump to wrong conclusions when only some of the facts
are known. It may of course be the other way round.

Also the severity of the bites may vary - it seems possible that
a mauling by a pit bull might be rather worse than a nip from a
jack-russel. But that also needs proper testing.

It is also very well established that observations such as yours can be
subject to enormous bias - we remember what our prejudices want
us to remember; (and please don't claim that you don't - lots of scientific
disciplines have shown this; sociology, psychology, medicine etc. --
double blind trials were invented to cope with us stupid humans )

Unless you have been writing down the actual numbers, severity, where,
how, what and why etc. etc., then what you think is happening is not
yet establsihed at all ............
However
It has the making of a lovely little study - but do get statistical
help _before_ you start; you may find that the numbers coming through
your department will take 10 years to collect to get to statistical
significance. You may need to include A&E and GPs to get meaningful
results.

Start on a pilot now

good luck - pm if you want advice.

I think you got the wrong end of the stick there, as most of the bites coming in ANE are actually from HUMANS.

[stripee]

Ban on certain breeds of dogs This is the press release from Dublin City Council.

It is good to see that there is love and responsiblity for dogs on this thread. But I'm asking why Dublin Council had got to this point? Many council houses, and flats are quite inappropriate in size and density for large breeds. And in many other settings not owned by councils as well. They quite possibly don't get enough exercise. A lot of people and children are scared of large dogs and may well behave inappropriately when meeting them and send out "fear" signals. What are the reasons behind having some of these breeds? Why not have a little dog in these circumstances? OK it can still bite, but smaller bitesRather than leaving a large dog out on a balcony all day to bark. Many of these dog owners will love their dogs too but didn't think through what kind of life they were going to have. If you don't have much money it is hard to spend it on worming and vets, this risks the health of others, farm animals and wildlife too from diseases and worms. Also what about barking? Some people are driven mad by this. Let alone gardens and parks with dog faeces.So D Council left things to get so bad that they are taking drastic action, I think this is a shame, but people's lives can be made a misery by dog owners, and many complaints to councils are about noise from barking and dog mess. It isn't only the hard core irresponsible owners, many people who love dogs are in denial about their negative side. I know there is a big positive side too but what must life be like in Dublin on some of the estates if you are not a dog fan or your 3 year old has just been bitten???

[Kymba]

Ok how about banning Children and Teenagers instead Some are constently yelling, screaming, shouting,fighting, bullying and intimidating and constantly out of control of parents .. So why not ban them all!!! It doesn't matter if some are well controlled, polite, well behaved and have never been in any trouble. Lets tar them all with the same Brush!!

Sorry this is a very Tongue in cheek statement, But this is what we seem to be doing with Dogs and their owners..

[brainfarmer]

dogs make great pets but people dont realise the fear that their lovely cuddily family pet can cause to other people the dog doesnt have to be vicious it can just want to sniff or check out a person with no intention to bite but to a stranger that can be very scarey.
its ok to say people should have freedom of choice to have dogs but other people should have freedom to not feel threatened or have constant barking or dog mess as an annoyance.
all dogs should have to be 'chipped' insured in case of biting or causing accidents and any dog found wandering put down within 24 hours and the owners fined and billed for the cost.

[stripee]

American Pit Bull Terrier
Staffordshire Bull Terrier
English Pit Bull Terrier
Bull Mastiff
Doberman Pinscher
German Shepherd (Alsatian)
Rhodesian Ridgeback
Rottweiler
Japanese Akita
Japanese Tosa

a look at the breeds that Dublin C want to ban. I'm not talking about how it is good to take normal well behaved dogs off their owners. And the list is perhaps unfair in which types it lists. Yes, screaming teenagers are not the ultimate either, along with all the other social problems that exist, but some of these dogs are dangerous potentially to anyone. Although many are sweet to their owners, some of these dogs are bred to be aggressive and have unpredictable behaviour, the same as a wild animal. Ask yourself why people want to own some of these types of dogs as pets?

[jj-harrishawker]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

Your first picture shows two dogs clearly unleashed in a public space ... you can understand why many people might feel nervous or threatened?
Yes, you'll probably say, "bBt my dogs won't hurt anyone, they're under control." People looking at this from another side might point out how often children (or adults) have been mauled to death by dogs whose owners afterwards say, 'But they'd never been a problem before ... they love people .... '"

However, I'm pleased to hear that you're in favour of chipping and licensing and we certainly need to go along that route ... soon ....

how can you say this? for all you know this is private land and theres no law against dogs being unleashed in certain areas.

i will be using a dog to wrok under hawks which will hardly ever be leashed and will be crossing many public footpaths etc. but in noway does the dog pose a threat and although not on a lead is under full! control.

[Dogrose]

I've read of surveys in the States where they found most serious bites and deaths from dogs were caused by rottweillers and pitbulls. The animal behaviourist Temple Grandin says pitbulls are like a gun with no safety and a hairtrigger. They might never go off, but handle them badly and you are asking for trouble.
I think this law is a bit harsh, but I can see why they feel its necessary, I've lived on a large, poverty striken 'rough' council estate. I also know the breeds in the list need sensitive, intelligent socialising as they grow to keep them in the realms of trustworthiness. I can see the two not mixing that well.
Maybe they should change the law so that anyone wanting a pet needs to apply to the council for permission, which may or may not be granted depending on an assessment of the tenant. Then unsuitable people can be refused permission to keep one of these breeds but existing owners aren't penalised.
We had a man from Cats Protection in college to give a talk and he said most of the cases of cruelty he has to deal with are in local authority housing areas. He has managed to persuade Leeds Met council to agree to reduce the number of pets allowed in local authority rented homes. It seems unfair until you have seen what goes on for yourself.

[gez]

hobjob... start a study.lol.no way. i was just adding to the thread. Re bias i dont have any bias as to which breed seems to be the worst biter, to be honest i dont care i do know that any dog with teeth in it mouth can bite. & yes some can do so much damage if they want to. We see quite a lot of bites to the lip & chin these are almost caused when a child is eating eg a biccy & the dog wants some with thew result being that it has just nipped the child, though i dont think there was any aggression! re pit bulls there should be non in the uk as they are banned & any left at the ban had to visit the vets to put a stop to any breeding. but there are still many here & most are in the wrong hands.Yes a dog timebomb.
warehouseman 56. you hit the nail on the head there. thing is we really cant but hope to stop this.
any way im of to take the dog out for a walk.

[Dogghound]

To me if your scared of a dog because its big you need to check yourself out. Owners are to blame, but also some of them species can be abit wild if they are owned by a clown who has no control. My dog is large totally harmless it amazes me how many people fear it, its hardly a wolf, i do actually find it immature at times.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

To me if your scared of a dog because its big you need to check yourself out. Owners are to blame, but also some of them species can be abit wild if they are owned by a clown who has no control. My dog is large totally harmless it amazes me how many people fear it, its hardly a wolf, i do actually find it immature at times.

I'm not scared of dogs on the basis of size (we had boxers then Irish wolf hound when i was a kid) but some breeds do worry me - particularly those bred for fighting such as tosa and american pit bull.

a couple of years back i had a serious dust up with a pitbull - it was attacking a yorkie - i intervened and it went for me - I had a six cell maglight in my hand and a jacket round my arm but i still wound up with a hairline fracture in the radius, two broken fingers , a cracked rib , and pulled muscles in the abdomen - the yorkie needed 48 stiches to put it back together and the pitbull had to be shot dead by a police firearms officer.

That this was in a busy public place and it could just have easily been a child on a the recieving end doesnt bear thinking about.

To my mind dogs like this should be banned full stop not just from council housing.

however i wouldnt extend the ban to GSD or rhodesian ridgeback - though i do think these ought to be muzzled in public

[svenrufus]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

To me if your scared of a dog because its big you need to check yourself out. Owners are to blame, but also some of them species can be abit wild if they are owned by a clown who has no control. My dog is large totally harmless it amazes me how many people fear it, its hardly a wolf, i do actually find it immature at times.

Hold on, that's a bit harsh isn't it?
Immature for fearing a large carnivore? Maybe it is the owner not the dog that is the real problem, but it is still the dog that does the biting, and I don't tend to conduct interviews of dog owners I pass in the streets and parks to see if they are responsible and have good dog handling skills, I just see a large dog and have no idea if it is well behaved and going to lick me to death, or unpredictable and going to bite me, as has happened. I have had very confrontational dogs going for me, and the owners laugh at their little(!) darling as if it is a big joke. To me it was terrifying, and yes it is the owner to blame, but still the dog is the direct cause of the trouble.
It is immature to not respect the feelings and fears of others whether they are well founded or not.

[Dogrose]

Its easy to laugh at people with real fears, I love spiders and have no worries about sleeping with the big house spider in her web above my bed, I'm not at all bothered when I see one scurrying across the floor yet many people would be terrified. I'm not afraid of horses and have little trouble handling very large and sometimes awkward ones, other people are nervous going anywhere near them. Some people are scared of all animals, my sister was nannying for two small kids once and she brought them round my house to see some kittens I had, the kids were absolutely terrified of them! Children terrified of small kittens. It was odd.
But anyway, it stands to reason a certain number of people you meet out on a walk are going to be scared of any dog and not want it sniffing at them.
Personally I don't like butterflies and moths- huge hairy spider in the bedroom? I say 'Hi!', Peacock Butterfly? I'm out of there

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by jj-harrishawker

how can you say this? for all you know this is private land and theres no law against dogs being unleashed in certain areas.

i will be using a dog to wrok under hawks which will hardly ever be leashed and will be crossing many public footpaths etc. but in noway does the dog pose a threat and although not on a lead is under full! control.

Ok so your dog is fine but other people's dogs may not be. What if your dog when crossing a public footpath goes running up to another dog that the owner has leashed and muzzelled because it can be a bit snappy towards other dogs and they are being as safe as they can,
your dog is going to cause the other to react aggressively and potentially start a fight with your dog as both animals would be acting on instinct, if you have a hawk on your hand how quickly can you get your dog back on a leash or out of such a situation.

I remember a conversation I had with a lady who was working with a rescue dog a really lovely animal but frightened of other dogs, she working on socialising it with other dogs and slowly making real progress but she lived in fear of unleashed dogs, she'd call out to people approaching to leash their dogs and they call back 'oh she's alright' referring to their own dog, by the time she's trying to explain why its important that they leash their dog has run up to hers and all hell breaks loose and although her dog is muzzled separating the animals can be painful.

Not to mention unleashed dogs and ground nesting birds in the breeding season - particularly if your dog is used to flush game.......

I'm not saying that dogs should always be on the leash far from it, dogs should absolutely be allowed to run and run but in the right places at the right time. Obviously you know your dog best but all dogs are tightly linked to their instincts from time to time and stating that your dog is almost always off the leash doesn't quite sound like a risk free situation really.

[jj-harrishawker]

personally my dog is kept out of known areas where nests are grounded as at this time of year i dont hunt with the hawk either to avoid chicks etc.

and quite easily id stop him approaching people and other dogs where i see potential danger by a simple blow of a whistle, voice command or the touch of a button (electric color) and i can do this with a bird on the glove also if need by theres a great invention god gave them wings so i can let them off the fist anytime.

i will also be including training with the elictric color to keep the dog focused on its purpose (working) and avoid distractions.

but as you say this is my dog which i speak of and cant account for the reactions of others.

[Gill Catton]

wow electric collars ouch.........

[JennyS]

In what hideous land can this ever be allowed?

I object to that comment!