two spiders for ID help please

[Linyphia]

I am a bit lost on these two, I have been through the literature again and again, every time I think I am getting close I find a reason why it can't be what I thought it was, so by now I have quite a good idea what they aren't, but still no idea as to what they ARE! They were both photographed in the summer in South Wales.

I would be very happy to get them to genus level and I will be very grateful for any leads!

[RobAtkinson1]

I don't know about the first one but the second one is possibly Clubiona species. Somebody more experienced should be able to help though.

[Geoff F]

An indication of size would be helpful to narrow down the possibilities.

My starting guesses would be Linyphiidae possibly Bathyphantes sp. or Nerine sp. for the first, but both of these can vary considerably in colour markings and are something of a nightmare to identify.

Clubionia is certainly possible for the second but I can't see any spinners, but that might just be the angle. Also, I do wonder if that is a juvenile.

But these are just a couple of guesses so it is best to wait for one of the real experts.

[Linyphia]

They were both very small (<5mm), the second one I believe is a mature male, despite its smalll size.

[Geoff F]

Well that size would roughly fit for both Neriene and many of the plain marked Clubionia species.

During the Spring and early Summer I find quite a lot of what I assume to be Neriene peltata in a couple of woods (never found them in open ground) and your specimen does seem similar to me.

That deep chocolate and creamy white colouration with plain legs certainly appears to match. But every specimen has a different abdomen pattern.

But where are the experts? Sometimes on this site, it can be like waiting for a bus - you wait a couple of days for an expert to appear, then 3 come along together!

[Linyphia]

Hi!

Thanks for your replies and LOL, ok I will patiently bide my time until the busload of experts arrives!

Many thanks for the suggestions so far, I think you may inadvertently have solved another ID problem I had given up on as the specimen is a tiny juvenile, but looking at photos of your suggested peltata I found one with exactly the same abdominal pattern as my little one (I know, pattern often isn't much to go by, but this one was EXACTLY the same), so what do you reckon, is this a baby peltata?

[jaguarondi]

Not really the expert you required, sorry, but I wonder about Microlinyphia pusilla for the first. It's abdominal pattern is variable and some specimens on this page look similar -
Fotogalerie Arachnida
- as does the picture in Dick Jones's book. But I'm afraid there's no substitute for having an adult specimen under the microscope.

I'd have guessed at family Linyphiidae for the second one too, but I'm not sure

[Geoff F]

Yes they are impossible to reliably identify from photos.

A typical Microlinyphia female normally has 2 longitudinal white bands on the abdomen, either side of the dark central band and these white bands are partially crossed by thin lines radiating outwards from the centre band and at a slightly backwards angle.

But typical theoretical markings aren't reliable with spiders!

That juvenile may well be the same species as the adult, whichever species that is.

[Linyphia]

still waiting for those busloads of mini-spider experts, there must be out there somewhere, surely???

[Geoff F]

I suspect the cold weather has sent them into temporary hibernation!

But Frits did make an appearance on this site yesterday; I suppose he might simply have agreed with what has already been said here.

However he has a lot more experience with spiders than either myself of Jaguarondi so let's hope he returns and shares his wisdom.