Adder bite?

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by sam4

The English adder can kill a human. However, nobody has been killed (and recorded) by an adder in England for over 20 years. Note that the English adder is not a large snake (70 cm or so) and it's not terribly common. England like much of Europe is very close to civilization at every place (unlike the united states for example), so no matter where you got bit, you'd most likely be able to make it to a hospital for treatment. Most people recover with nausea, maybe some vomiting and bruising at the bite location. However, without treatment and if the adder pumps a lot of venom....and it's a larger one....it could kill a human. Note also that adders are not vicious....they generally try to avoid contact with anything that isn't prey. So, only if they are bothered or stepped on would you expect to be bitten.

So, to your question. If a dog or cat were bitten by an adder and didn't receive treatment, then yes, A dog of any size, is quite likely to die.

Forestry Commission - Adder

NHS Direct Wales - Encyclopaedia : Bites, snake

So you have been googling..
Treatment as in taking the bitten victim to seek proper medical assistance either vets the GP or the hospital, not "hocus pocus" homoeopathy where evidence of aiding the victim is none existent.
Yes adders can kill if the victim suffers an allergic reaction as can bee stings. I would not put my life or my dogs on the line for homoeopathy.

[fairplay]

You're really confusing me now Sam, in your first post, No 15. you sounded (to me) like you were fresh out of school and had set yourself up in some sort of animal sanctuary.

Your second post, No 24. came over as being willing to learn, but from then on, I would think almost everybody here had completely lost you, and I will say I honestly believed you were a charlatan and were getting yourself deeper and deeper into troubled water with every comment you made.

Now finally, you have googled an NHS and FC site, learnt some facts and are now trying to preach to us !
I honestly have no idea who is daft enough to fund your 'work', but isn't it time you moved on to greener pastures ?

Neil.

[Gue Jam Fowsid]

I found this thread fascinating. All three of our native snakes are fairly placid and shy creatures. The adder may bite if picked up or stepped on, but initially, would more than likely make a quick get away once ground vibrations are detected.

I've never known a grass snake to actually bite. They do bluff alot - hiss, strike, play dead, release foul smelling gastric juices . An impressive suite of defence mechanisms.

The smooth snake is a calm reptile and slow to move off (not usually seen openly basking), and every now and then will bite. They are reptile specialists and will feed on adders. They are constrictors and are not venomous.

Check out the Surrey ARG website for species profiles and other useful information.

Cheers,

Jamel

[arvensis]

My 2 pence worth:

I do not like the way that Sam has mentioned 'outbreaks' of Adder bites and it 'becoming a serious problem' as if it's some sort of disease. I wonder how many Adder bites on Dogs would be avoided if they were kept on leads? On one of the heathland sites I visit quite regularily, it seems that 8 out of 10 dogs are off a lead.

As a few have mentioned, if a Dog gets bitten, go to a vets, if a Human gets bitten, get to A+E.

Mark

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by arvensis

My 2 pence worth:

I do not like the way that Sam has mentioned 'outbreaks' of Adder bites and it 'becoming a serious problem' as if it's some sort of disease. I wonder how many Adder bites on Dogs would be avoided if they were kept on leads? On one of the heathland sites I visit quite regularily, it seems that 8 out of 10 dogs are off a lead.

As a few have mentioned, if a Dog gets bitten, go to a vets, if a Human gets bitten, get to A+E.

Mark

I think we can all safely say whatever Sam says can be taken with a pinch of salt as she/he is only going on google and has no knowledge or evidence to back up his/her claims.

[ViperaBerus]

Good grief, I've read through this thread and can't believe the posts here. It's like travelling back to the 4th century and listening to a conversation about Britains snakes. Unbelievable the amount of misinformation there is still out there.

I'm a field herpetologist that has been working with venomous snakes for at least 25 years now, most of those with adders, but I study vipers and colubrids as a whole and am heavily involved with various toxicology units which require venom for medical research.

Fact 1. Dogs have an excellent immune system far better than humans for dealing with v.berus bites. Even after very serious bites, they are capable of recovery without medical attention. Although obviously, this is advised.

Fact 2. Adders can bite repetitively, and quickly, envenomating many times. They don't become 'dry' after one bite. Far from it. They may deliver a dry first bite, but will use higher quantities of venom if the attacker persists.

Fact 3. Sam, your remedies for envenomation will have zero effect. You might just as well surround yourself with a ring of salt, soot or sausages. Your advice is not only incorrect, but irresponsible and dangerous and could lead to further complications you would be held responsible for. You did that to anything of mine that was envenomated by a snake and I would sue you.

Fact 4. An adder bite on any human should be treated as serious, it is not the same as a bee sting in any form. It is a highly complex mixture of toxins that are easily capable of serious detrimental effect to health in the short and long term and should be treated in all cases. Taking vitamin C will do nothing. People in Europe still die when bitten in remote areas far from medical attention. Mg for mg, adder venom is a highly potent and complex snake venom similar to the deadlier species of rattlesnake. Luckily they are smaller than those snakes, so cannot deliver that venom in that same quantities.

Fact 5. Adders can open their mouths 180 degrees when striking, so could bite a flat wall if they wished. They are fully capable of biting a human being, cow or elephant absolutely anywhere on that animals body. The lower jaw can flex beyond that on impact, so could even bite angled areas like armpits.

Fact 6. Adders have quite good eyesight, especially in low light conditions. Many times they will pick up movement before they pick up vibration or scent.

Fact 7. No such thing as a poisonous snake. You can eat them all.

Fact 8. The adder (vipera berus), also known as the Northern Viper, Viper or Common Viper is the only venomous snake in the UK. Being bitten by a Grass snake or Smooth snake will only bleed slightly, and a tetanus will do fine for them. Grass snakes very very rarely bite, and even then, most times they will keep the mouth closed and just headbutt you. Smooth snakes will bite, and so will adders if provoked or threatened.

Apologies to those who already know all that lot, just thought I'd lay all the myths to rest in one post.

[ViperaBerus]

Originally Posted by sam4

I went through this bite issue myself but never gave the irritation a thought until late afternoon when I noticed my jeans were a bit tight on one side. On investigation, I saw 2 puncture wounds as that's normal for a snake bite and I just treated myself when I got home. It took about 3 days for everything to calm down. It was early morning and I was out with my dog and I felt this pinch but just thought I'd caught myself on something so never gave it a thought. It just itched all day but luckily it was just a reaction and nothing serious. Some summers we get a lot of people asking for help and it is usually dogs poor things.

It wasn't an adder your were bitten by. By the description it points more to insect or larger arachnid. It is nothing like a snakebite, even a dry one. If you were envenomated by an adder, you would know about it. and certainly feel the impact. It is painful and gets considerably moreso as time passes depending on the venom yield. Nausea and vomitting can occur and in severe cases unconciousness. The limb swells to twice it's normal size at an alarming rate and necrosis around the bite can occur. Severe bruising occurs and teh limb can turn a very dark purple with the pain thumping through you like small hammer blows. The area will also get very sensitive and sometimes pain around the groin will occur.

If been bitten a few times by adders. If a large yield of venom is injected, it's not something you can 'shrug off' as is claimed here, actually, even quite a mild yield isn't a walk in the park. Correct medical attention is needed at all times.

I was in hospital for ten days with my worst bite. Steve Backshall was in for a week when he was bitten a couple of years back.

[fairplay]

In Post 24, Sam mentions of working closely with vets to produce a vaccine or words to that effect. Hopefully, Sam is just a Walter Mitty character, but if she is working with vets, I wonder if these vets are aware of Sam's total lack of knowledge regarding snakes and their bites - presumably she is making money out of this, so is she making money out of false pretences ?

Would not these 'vets' have suspicions too ? If not, how good are they at their job ? So many questions need answering.

Neil.

[ViperaBerus]

How can you produce a vaccine when you don't have a clue as to what venomous snakes are in the UK, let alone the enzymes that make up venom and how they work. You also need samples of that venom in large quantities to produce a viable vaccine.

As the latter is exactly what I do for a living, I have to say that I've never met a vet or person similarly qualified that would work with someone that has no knowledge whatsoever of the subject they purport to be experts on.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by ViperaBerus

How can you produce a vaccine when you don't have a clue as to what venomous snakes are in the UK, let alone the enzymes that make up venom and how they work. You also need samples of that venom in large quantities to produce a viable vaccine.

As the latter is exactly what I do for a living, I have to say that I've never met a vet or person similarly qualified that would work with someone that has no knowledge whatsoever of the subject they purport to be experts on.

Anyone can set up as a homoeopathy practitioner its big business it works for some who believe in it maybe its a placebo maybe there is something in it but only a stupid person would treat a snake bite with it.


Sam seems to have left so I doubt she will be back to answer the questions.
You take a small amount of the substance ie venom then dilute it until none of the original is left but like others have said how can you treat something you know nothing about as all venom is different.
So the advice would be to seek proper medical assistance.