Is it true what they say about frogs and newts?

[ohgreatstew]

I have a wildlife pond (No fish) for about 8 or 10 years now, we always used to get frog spawn every year without fail, in recent years we seem to have dozens of newts, and I mean dozens, they are common newts and in late spring and summer I can sit and count 10 - 20 at a time easily, this is by far my favorite past time in the summer....
Right now I can hear frogs in the evenings every night, and all our neighbors have spawn, but we don't, nothing else has changed in our pond and a lot of people have said you don't get both newts and frogs in your pond, is this true?

Thanks Stewart

[Dogghound]

You do get frogs and newts in the same pond. However newts predate frog tadpoles so frogs tend to avoid breeding in ponds with large numbers of newts. This often results in frogs breeding in new or temporary ponds before newts become established.

[King Edward]

Surely the thing to do would be to check your neighbours' ponds, to see if they also have newts (and whether they have as many as you do in yours). If their ponds are suitable, I think it would be odd if there weren't.

Ultimately, though, if there are good local populations of both species, I suppose it doesn't matter too much if they don't both breed in all the ponds (although obviously it would be nice to have the frogs back.

We have 2 adjacent ponds here - one currently full, mostly about 2' deep, with large numbers of both Great Crested and Smooth Newts (and some goldfish), and the other currently almost empty (needing repair) with just 2-3" of water and no newts. No sign of frogspawn in the full pond, and I never noticed any previously when they were both full (although they did breed in other ponds nearby), but this year some was laid in the empty pond. I don't know though whether this was in direct response to the newts, or just a preference for the shallow water.

There are also breeding Toads here, favouring the deep ponds - over 60 last year, with 1000s of tadpoles, but survival rate seemed to be 0%. I don't think I saw any that even made it to the leg stage, let alone emergence onto land. There were no fish in the pond then, so that seems to implicate Great Crested Newts as the most likely predator (or else disease, maybe Ranavirus as I did see two Toads which I think were killed by this last year and the year before - no mass die-offs of adults though).

[Putorius]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

You do get frogs and newts in the same pond. However newts predate frog tadpoles so frogs tend to avoid breeding in ponds with large numbers of newts. This often results in frogs breeding in new or temporary ponds before newts become established.

In a nutshell, very accurate information.


Newts, particularly the great crested, tend (but not always) to avoid small ponds that are occupied by fish. It can be a different matter in larger pond networks with heavily vegetated edges. The small pond scenario has limitations so far as the diversity of life that it will support. The phrase "big fish in a small pond" speaks for itself!

On the other side of the coin, small garden ponds rarely manage to support substantive colonies of frogs and newts for the very same reason. Typically, when a garden pond is created, being more mobile than newts, the frogs arrive fairly soon. Often for the first few seasons the pond can become literally alive with frogs of varying sizes, due to the high metamorphosis rate due to the lack of established predators (see Dogghound`s comments above). As invertebrate predator numbers increase, some form of balance is achieved. Newts often arrive within a season or two, sometimes longer, and if the conditions suit them, (no or very few fish predators and a bountiful supply of anuran tadpoles certainly will suit them!) they will stay.

In a small pond scenario, within three seasons of the first newts breeding at the site, there can be literally hundreds of individuals within the newt colony, feeding not only on an aquatic invertebrate diet but also easily mopping up the readily available protein source of frog tadpoles. It will come as no suprise therefore that the small pond scenario nearly always dictates that newt numbers reaching an optimum level coincides with the decline of frog numbers at the same pond due to the high numbers of predatory newts in so small an area. As a result, very few tadpoles metamorphose into frogs at the site.

[STYRBJORN]

Multi-culturalism doesn't work!!

Ric

[ohgreatstew]

Thank you all for your feedback....

In answer to the questions raised...
- I have been talking to the neighbors, and it seems that they do all get newts from time to time, but not in numbers and not every year. In contrast they nealry all get frog spawn every year.
- Rearding the change between having frogs and newts this was quick, I remember 1 year when we had both, and since then newts have taken over big time.

It would be nice to have both, but I am perfectly happy with my large newt population and there are plenty of visiting frogs from the surrounding area.

Stewart

[Dogghound]

Newts are more vulnerable to local population declines so its good you have some.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Putorius

Newts, particularly the great crested, tend (but not always) to avoid small ponds that are occupied by fish. It can be a different matter in larger pond networks with heavily vegetated edges. The small pond scenario has limitations so far as the diversity of life that it will support. The phrase "big fish in a small pond" speaks for itself!

On the other side of the coin, small garden ponds rarely manage to support substantive colonies of frogs and newts for the very same reason. Typically, when a garden pond is created, being more mobile than newts, the frogs arrive fairly soon. Often for the first few seasons the pond can become literally alive with frogs of varying sizes, due to the high metamorphosis rate due to the lack of established predators (see Dogghound`s comments above). As invertebrate predator numbers increase, some form of balance is achieved. Newts often arrive within a season or two, sometimes longer, and if the conditions suit them, (no or very few fish predators and a bountiful supply of anuran tadpoles certainly will suit them!) they will stay.

In a small pond scenario, within three seasons of the first newts breeding at the site, there can be literally hundreds of individuals within the newt colony, feeding not only on an aquatic invertebrate diet but also easily mopping up the readily available protein source of frog tadpoles. It will come as no suprise therefore that the small pond scenario nearly always dictates that newt numbers reaching an optimum level coincides with the decline of frog numbers at the same pond due to the high numbers of predatory newts in so small an area. As a result, very few tadpoles metamorphose into frogs at the site.

....Great information

Do newts tend to mate and produce eggs soon after arriving at a new pond? Or do they wait until they feel established?

I have a small wildlife pond which I created last June and spotted my first newt in it yesterday afternoon. I was out last night with a torch and then was able to clearly identify not one but three newts as Smooth Newts - One being a fine male which was closely hanging out with and following one of the females. They are really beautiful little creatures.

About a fortnight ago I introduced some frogspawn from about 50yds away (yes, I know it's ill advised and we have already had that conversation) and the tadpoles are emerging and gobbling up their jelly. At night they appear to be asleep, unlike the newts. I can't help wondering if the newts attack the tadpoles when they are swimming around or as easier pickings while 'asleep' in their jelly, as in this photo:



So, I'm expecting that many or most, if not all, of the tadpoles will get eaten before they become large enough to be left alone by the newts. Obviously some kind of balance will be achieved and it's likely to be newt biassed. I expect they might also gobble up my Damselfly nymphs. Are newts prolific breeders in the absence of fish or other predators? What usually predates on newts when in the water?

I expect that the newt biassed natural balance won't settle for a year or two and when frogs don't come to my pond (which they never have done so far to my knowledge). I'm wondering if the newts were already there when the frogspawn arrived or whether their radar located the yummy spawn/tadpoles and brought them here.

To put the subject into context, my pond:



As you say, a small wildlife garden pond has its limitations but I nonetheless feel that it adds much to the general wildlife in a garden and helps propogate all sorts of species in that garden even if this crazy man has the ability to play 'God' in that small environment.

Btw, almost immediately after switching off my torch I heard a very loud "Pop!!" sound... ? ? ? It didn't sound like a splash.

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Red Robin

Do newts tend to mate and produce eggs soon after arriving at a new pond? Or do they wait until they feel established?

Newts have a more prolonged breeding season than frogs and can lay eggs over several weeks. They will often get to the pond, court, breed then start laying eggs. The length of this process can be altered by a large number of factors like habitat, temperature, species, food supply, predation etc.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

I can't help wondering if the newts attack the tadpoles when they are swimming around or as easier pickings while 'asleep' in their jelly, as in this

Most predation will occur when tadpoles are less active and easy prey. Newts are more active during the night so most feeding will occur at this time.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

So, I'm expecting that many or most, if not all, of the tadpoles will get eaten before they become large enough to be left alone by the newts. Obviously some kind of balance will be achieved and it's likely to be newt biassed.

Most likely although some will probably survive. The reason no frogs did mate in your pond is most likely due to these newts being present. As I said in the other thread (I think) there is usually a reason they dont lay eggs in a pond.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

I expect they might also gobble up my Damselfly nymphs. Are newts prolific breeders in the absence of fish or other predators?

Adults will predate Damselfly nymphs yes. The larvae will feed on daphnia to start with and work up to large invertebrate prey. A female smooth newt will produce upto several hundred eggs in a season many wont survive and many will be predated as eggs and larvae.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

What usually predates on newts when in the water?

Water beetles, water beetle larvae, dragonfly larvae, herons, kingfishers, ducks, fish and grass snakes to name a few.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

I expect that the newt biassed natural balance won't settle for a year or two and when frogs don't come to my pond (which they never have done so far to my knowledge). I'm wondering if the newts were already there when the frogspawn arrived or whether their radar located the yummy spawn/tadpoles and brought them here.

I would have thought they would be there or would have been coming there regardless of the spawn.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

Btw, almost immediately after switching off my torch I heard a very loud "Pop!!" sound... ? ? ? It didn't sound like a splash.

Most likely a frog, "plop" is usually a sound water voles make when entering the pond although your suitable, but you are close to a river.

[Red Robin]

^^^^
Thank you so much for your full and comprehensive reply, Dogghound . It's not the first time I've been helped by you