Ethics of rescuing spawn?

[tom00_uk]

Originally Posted by Red Robin

....Too late! I've already moved two small clumps less than 100yds but into the same water type - My wildlife pond water being from the same water source. We'll see what happens.

Interesting and educational point you make about spawning in shallow water - However, wouldn't being shallow such that the spawn breaks the surface (as in the case of my source) make it more prone to death by frost? A hard frost is currently forecast here.

Life and death is a gamble whichever way it goes.

the spawn that might or might not prove non-viable and never hatch will become a food source for the eggs lower down that do hatch

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Red Robin

Too late! I've already moved two small clumps less than 100yds but into the same water type - My wildlife pond water being from the same water source. We'll see what happens.

Possibly not a huge issue as 100 yards is not far for a frog, unless of course both habitats are totally fragmented from each other then it could be an issue. The water type may be the same but its contents and make up will have changed.

Originally Posted by Red Robin

Interesting and educational point you make about spawning in shallow water - However, wouldn't being shallow such that the spawn breaks the surface (as in the case of my source) make it more prone to death by frost? A hard frost is currently forecast here.

Shallow water bodies are far better for developing frogspawn than deeper ones due to them heating up at a higher faster rate. Frog spawn usually floats so if its in a deep pond or a shallow pond it makes little difference the exposed upper layer can be damaged by frost but not normally the whole clump. If it was in flowing water it would probably be warmer than your pond anyway and less susceptible to frost damage.

[nightshade]

Originally Posted by Putorius

I read the first page of the posts here and must admit that I did skip through the majority of the next three pages. Therefore if I repeat what has already been said elsewhere then I apologise.

I am the conservation officer of an ARG (Amphibian and Reptile group) and have been passionate about herpetofauna conservation since childhood, a considerable time ago! I have been involved extensively with swabbing amphibian breeding grounds for the fungal pathogen Chytridiomicosis. I can assure you all that it is spreading and is present at many spots in the British Isles, and that`s just the ones that we are aware of. I won`t get into how it is likely to have got here etc, the fact is it is here. Amphibians are particularly vulnerable to infection when in the water. As a result, if you are concerned about the welfare of the common frog as a species, then please think about the bigger picture and do not concern yourself with a few clumps that might be tugging at your heart strings.

PLEASE DO NOT MOVE SPAWN AROUND.

Help prevent the spread of disease and in so doing, help the frogs and the long term future of the species. They certainly need it!

If you absolutely refuse to heed this plea, then consider the distance that you intend moving the spawn, and reconsider. In the case of the thread starter, if you cannot bare the thought of nature taking it`s course and the spawn being "reycled" either into bird or mammal flesh or into the earth and it`s invertebrate inhabitants, if you really must do and can`t sleep otherwise, then rear it yourself and release no more than 200 hundred yards distant from the original site. It would be far better to allow nature to take it`s course however.

Rana temporaria, the common frog is a pioneering species. The survival tactic is explosive breeding i.e; vast numbers of eggs with no parental care, all produced at the same time to overwhelm predators so that a small number are likely to become viable adults. It`s almost the equivalent of a human couple having 2,000 children, leaving them to it and hoping that two survive to replace the parents!

Frogs often deliberately choose temporary shallow water bodies. The gamble that the temporary water body may well dry out before metamorphosis takes place is off set against;
A) Shallow water heating up and staying warmer for longer than deeper water and increasing speed of development
B) It being less likely that caudates (newts) will colonise and predate large numbers of eggs/tadpoles
C) A temporary or new shallow water body is likely (at least to begin with) to have less invertebrate predators present also.

In conclusion, the common frog has been here a good deal longer than we have. It did fine without us, and has a chance to continue to be here long after we have gone. Risking advancing the spread of disease (which incidently has most likely been brought here due to yet more human interference to begin with) by translocating spawn reduces the chance of survival for frogs as a species rather than increase it, simple fact.

The University of Bristol organised the movement of frog spawn through its "Croak Line" so I assume if spawn is moved where there is a dearth it is ok.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by tom00_uk

the spawn that might or might not prove non-viable and never hatch will become a food source for the eggs lower down that do hatch

....Thanks, Tom - I learn something new every day even at my age.

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

Possibly not a huge issue as 100 yards is not far for a frog, unless of course both habitats are totally fragmented from each other then it could be an issue. The water type may be the same but its contents and make up will have changed.

Shallow water bodies are far better for developing frogspawn than deeper ones due to them heating up at a higher faster rate. Frog spawn usually floats so if its in a deep pond or a shallow pond it makes little difference the exposed upper layer can be damaged by frost but not normally the whole clump. If it was in flowing water it would probably be warmer than your pond anyway and less susceptible to frost damage.

....No flow whatsoever in the original location's water.

Some of the spawn is floating, and some not floating, in the shallow original location but has all sunk in my pond.

Accepting that the water type will/may have changed, at least it's not tap water.

[toadpole]

Red Robin....I think you are very brave to admit you got impatient and collected some spawn from another pond ...even tho i have done this loads of times in the past with tadpoles (especially toad ones) I never have said too much about it on this forum because of the backlash !!!...and i have to say your post did make me chuckle too ps what i will admit too is ''borrowing ''mating pairs of frogs and toads that were on MY front lawn but heading to my neighbours pond.....and i felt my need was greater than theirs ...and i was proved right as they filled the pond in at the end of last summer shame tho as it was such a nice pond and the frogs and toads did love spawning in it Marion

[Red Robin]

Originally Posted by toadpole

Red Robin....I think you are very brave to admit you got impatient and collected some spawn from another pond ...even tho i have done this loads of times in the past with tadpoles (especially toad ones) I never have said too much about it on this forum because of the backlash !!!

....Well, I will always listen to/read what I'm advised to do by others but then I make up my own mind whether I'm right or wrong. I'm never afraid to admit if I was wrong about something later. Bottom line is what is anyone here who objects, really going to do about it except pontificate? We all have our own opinions and views - Each To Their Own (ETTO).

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by Red Robin

....Well, I will always listen to/read what I'm advised to do by others but then I make up my own mind whether I'm right or wrong. I'm never afraid to admit if I was wrong about something later. Bottom line is what is anyone here who objects, really going to do about it except pontificate? We all have our own opinions and views - Each To Their Own (ETTO).

My advice for what its worth is to listen to advice. We all have our own opinions on things, if I swore blindly that doing something was for the benifit of species A but people and literature suggested otherwise I would not go ahead and do it because its my opinion. Unfortunately theres not a lot anyone can do about it, If I said I was going to pour petrol into a pond or shoot a bird of prey I could probably get away with it to some extent, doesnt make it right because theres nothing anyone can do about it. Everyone is entitled to their views but their actions can and do cause damage.

[Susie]

Originally Posted by Dogghound

My advice for what its worth is to listen to advice. We all have our own opinions on things, if I swore blindly that doing something was for the benifit of species A but people and literature suggested otherwise I would not go ahead and do it because its my opinion. Unfortunately theres not a lot anyone can do about it, If I said I was going to pour petrol into a pond or shoot a bird of prey I could probably get away with it to some extent, doesnt make it right because theres nothing anyone can do about it. Everyone is entitled to their views but their actions can and do cause damage.

Well said, Dogghound.

Personally I choose to heed the advice of Plutorius.

[STYRBJORN]

Well . . . OK. Leave the spawn to its/their own device(s). But these questions are so often more nuanced than first appears. I once lived in a flat near to a big pool. Walking back from the PUB one day, it was raining like . . . heavy rain. Leaping about all over the path were a lot - looked like hundreds - of shaggy dandies. I grabbed as many as I could and chucked 'em into the pool. Got soaked but I rescued a lot of tiny froglets and froglettes. It was only later that I realised that they were almost certainly from spawn in a nearby ditch. Was I right to "save" them? I may as well say now that whatever response I get, I'll still do the same under the same circumstances.