A des res for newts?

[thunder]

Originally Posted by animartco

Yes, I'm sorry if I sound pedantic. It's something I feel very strongly about, due to my own experiences and due to the fact that I live in the crowded South East where all our local woodland has largely iron hard soil through constant trampling. As you say, one person walking would not Kill enough creatures to affect numbers but ten people trampling an acre even three times during a winter IS enough to kill a significant number of creatures. If a newt or other creature is hibernating at a depth of up to nine inches, one footfall might not impact the soil enough to suffocate it. But two feet is likely and three would almost certainly kill it. It probably wouldn't be squashed but it relies on passage of air through the soil in order to breathe, and three foot falls is enough to remove a significant amount of air. Also due to impaction of the soil which causes cohesion and the start of concretion, it may not be able to claw its way to the surface even if it did survive. It is in effect 'buried alive'.

But you are ignoring the simple fact that there are not large numbers of creatures hibernating underground in the places that people will walk.

henrya

[Dogghound]

Originally Posted by animartco

Yes, I'm sorry if I sound pedantic. It's something I feel very strongly about, due to my own experiences and due to the fact that I live in the crowded South East where all our local woodland has largely iron hard soil through constant trampling. As you say, one person walking would not Kill enough creatures to affect numbers but ten people trampling an acre even three times during a winter IS enough to kill a significant number of creatures. If a newt or other creature is hibernating at a depth of up to nine inches, one footfall might not impact the soil enough to suffocate it. But two feet is likely and three would almost certainly kill it. It probably wouldn't be squashed but it relies on passage of air through the soil in order to breathe, and three foot falls is enough to remove a significant amount of air. Also due to impaction of the soil which causes cohesion and the start of concretion, it may not be able to claw its way to the surface even if it did survive. It is in effect 'buried alive'.

Were going around in circles here I have already explained about this. For example I have experienced Great crested newts hibernating within the loose soil of a ploughed arable field, which for the record is not a common occurance. The field was ploughed then seeded which involved heavy machinery on top of the soil. The newt population didnt suffer due to this, which I admit I was quite suprized by. Newts tend not to overwinter underground but when they do they go into soil which has lots of voids in it. This has plenty of pockets of oxygen, plenty of gaps to hibernate in etc. If the soil is already that compacted that several people walking on it are going to squeeze the air out and trap the newt then its unlikely the newt will have been able to get there in the first place. A human does not weight enough to compact the ground inches below them.

[eeyore]

Originally Posted by thunder

But you are ignoring the simple fact that there are not large numbers of creatures hibernating underground in the places that people will walk.

henrya

and also a/m original ridiculous assertion on this issue was that if a pond were regularly surveyed then it wouldnt have newts because they'd all have been trampled

given that she now accepts that one person doesnt have sufficeint trampling effect to do this just how many people does she think a newt survey takes ?

[RoyW]

Originally Posted by animartco

Yes, I'm sorry if I sound pedantic. It's something I feel very strongly about, due to my own experiences and due to the fact that I live in the crowded South East where all our local woodland has largely iron hard soil through constant trampling. As you say, one person walking would not Kill enough creatures to affect numbers but ten people trampling an acre even three times during a winter IS enough to kill a significant number of creatures. If a newt or other creature is hibernating at a depth of up to nine inches, one footfall might not impact the soil enough to suffocate it. But two feet is likely and three would almost certainly kill it. It probably wouldn't be squashed but it relies on passage of air through the soil in order to breathe, and three foot falls is enough to remove a significant amount of air. Also due to impaction of the soil which causes cohesion and the start of concretion, it may not be able to claw its way to the surface even if it did survive. It is in effect 'buried alive'.

If it was actually true that trampling had the effect described here, then you should be supporting the idea of creating "safe" areas for newts, and other creatures, to spend the winter. You are countering your own arguments.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by RoyW

If it was actually true that trampling had the effect described here, then you should be supporting the idea of creating "safe" areas for newts, and other creatures, to spend the winter. You are countering your own arguments.

Yep, all the signs of a troll...

[Wild-Woman]

When I worked in a school, I headed up the project of producing a wildlife area that could be used by...well you've guessed, children.
As it was necessary to involve the children at the planning stages as well as some of the more lightweight construction and planting. Some of what they designed wasn't what you would call 'best for purpose' but it was THEIR plans and ideas put into fruition.
There were odd stacks of logs, far flung hedgehog houses, bee banks willy nilly, insect hotels stuffed with allsorts of things the kids had found, two ponds set apart, bird tables, bat boxes, newt hibernacula (away from the pond) made from broken concrete and old wood, you name it, the kids put it there. Now, my point is this. 460 children regularly visited and trampled that area, turned up the logs, dipped the pond, stirred up the sediment at the bottom and rearranged the insect hotel.
Yearly, I surveyed what we had in that area and when we had a herpetologist visit to sort out reptile fencing because the school was being extended, it was noticed, noted and recorded how good the area was for newts, frogs and grass snakes.
So with all that trampling and disturbance, everything survived very nicely and year on year got better and better. 460 children also love their wildlife.

[Deb London]

Originally Posted by RoyW

If it was actually true that trampling had the effect described here, then you should be supporting the idea of creating "safe" areas for newts, and other creatures, to spend the winter. You are countering your own arguments.

Yes indeed.

I have been slowly feeding back snippets of posts back to someone who is in a position to do some good for a population of GCNs near where I live. I haven't been able to reference this thread because of the utter codswallop that has been spoken by animartco. So that's more time wasted for me.

Otherwise, it's been a very interesting discussion. I love the image WW has conjured up in my mind. 460 school kids being allowed the freedom play and learn and not be scared of nature. Fantastic.

[Gill Catton]

Originally Posted by Deb London

Yes indeed.

I have been slowly feeding back snippets of posts back to someone who is in a position to do some good for a population of GCNs near where I live. I haven't been able to reference this thread because of the utter codswallop that has been spoken by animartco. So that's more time wasted for me.

Otherwise, it's been a very interesting discussion. I love the image WW has conjured up in my mind. 460 school kids being allowed the freedom play and learn and not be scared of nature. Fantastic.

Too true

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by Deb London

Yes indeed.

I have been slowly feeding back snippets of posts back to someone who is in a position to do some good for a population of GCNs near where I live. I haven't been able to reference this thread because of the utter codswallop that has been spoken by animartco. So that's more time wasted for me.

Otherwise, it's been a very interesting discussion. I love the image WW has conjured up in my mind. 460 school kids being allowed the freedom play and learn and not be scared of nature. Fantastic.

Well said Deb..
I just wish she would go and find something else to do she is obviously bored and leave this thread alone now.

[Bellfamily]

Originally Posted by wild-woman

so with all that trampling and disturbance, everything survived very nicely and year on year got better and better. 460 children also love their wildlife.

bravo!!