Ulcers on frogs - help!

[Snufflz]

That sounds like a good plan. The new pond is full of oxygenators and is crystal clear. I've filled it with native plants and there are two large terracotta pots on their side at the bottom to give the frogs shelter as well as lots of caves and grasses around the pond edge.

The babies are about an inch and a half when sitting. If they are old enough to be moved, I'll get the old pond out this weekend.

Thank you so much for your advice.

[captaincarot]

i think you may have mentioned watercress in another thread, frogs really do like watercress especially the small ones. my previous house had pond with large watercress bed and it was always full of frogs.

with the added bonus that you can keep the cress under control by eating it

[captaincarot]

Originally Posted by Snufflz

Then, last night, I saw two frogs in the old pond also with what appeared to be ulcers on their backs. The ulcers were white and spherical.

.

Elaine.

this bit dos make it seem like a fungal infection though

[Snufflz]

That's good to know. I have watercress in the pond that is growing well plus some creeping jenny to provide more cover. Before they started getting sick, the frogs loved sitting in the sedge and peeking out. Now I hardly see any.

[Malcolm Banks]

Haven't seen anything back from the Froglife people but there seem to be a few minor misconceptions in some of the posts above.
The term “red-leg disease” is potentially confusing since, although historically associated with a bacterial infection (Aeromonas hydrophila), studies in the UK and elsewhere in the 90s showed that a ranavirus (probably introduced from N America) was involved in most of the cases. In these cases, isolation of A. hydrophila was considered to be a result of secondary or post mortem infection. The ranavirus has 2 clinical presentations (haemorrhages and skin ulcers) both of which may be found in the same frog and when first detected in UK was described as “red leg disease”.
The antibiotics referred to will be ineffective against viruses but may have an impact on secondary bacterial and fungal infections.
Not sure what you should do though, if confirmed as ranavirus it may be best to clear out all our ponds and start again, but Froglife should have this covered, good luck, there but for the grace of god etc
M

[Malcolm Banks]

Sorry, didn't want to start a panic of H1N1 proportions, the typo (clear out all our ponds" should be "all your ponds"
M

[captaincarot]

no misconceptin at all, red leg disease is cause by bacterial infection by aeromonas or pseudomonas.
ranavirus is caused by viral infection and is ranavirus not red leg disease.
red leg disease is treatable by antibiotics in some cases but by the time it shows it's usually too late.

[Malcolm Banks]

Shortly after thefirst isolation of ranavirus in UK (1995) the following was stated in the summary of the paper by Cunningham et al (1996) Philos Trans R Soc Lond B Biol Sci. 351: 1539-57
“Specifically, we hypothesize that primary iridovirus infection, with or without secondary infection with opportunistic pathogens such as A. hydrophila, may cause natural outbreaks of 'red-leg', a disease considered previously to be due to bacterial infection only.”

This has been followed up by other reports and a more recent one by a similar group of authors used controlled experimental infections to confirm the above hypothesis. These authors from ZSL and Royal Vet College describe the clinical signs of Red leg disease in frogs and summarise their experimental infection findings with, inter alia, “The re-isolation of ranavirus from experimentally affected frogs fulfilled Koch’s postulates.” (for info this means proof that the agent is responsible for the clinical signs) “Aeromonas hydrophila, previously associated with similar lesions, was not significant to disease development”
Cunningham et al (2007) Epidemiol and Infect. 135: 1200-12.

The observed beneficial therapeutic impact of antibiotics in a relatively small proportion of infected frogs is consistent with control of secondary infections (eg A hydrophila) that in a proportion of cases in many diseases, can prove to be the final cause of morbidity/mortality.

I haven't seen any publications in peer reviewed journals that dispute these findings but you may know more?
M

[captaincarot]

i'm only going on what i was told by my herp vet after having a frog die from red leg.
post mortem tests showed infection by aeromonas and pseudomonas only.

[Malcolm Banks]

Sometimes it is very difficult for practise vets, even specialists, to keep up with developments in the scientific literature, so wide is the subject area.
Was your frog tested for ranavirus either ante- or post-mortem?
I believe there is a PCR test for the virus now as well as isolation of the virus (from infected tissues) in fathead minnow cell cultures, but you would probably have to pay between £75 and £200 for each of these tests.
If not tested for ranavirus, the Aeromonas spp. and Pseudomonas spp. are moderately common opportunistic, often secondary bacterial pathogens that can be isolated from infected tissues, occasionally following contamination post mortem.

To take this in another direction, have Froglife been able to offer an opinion on causal agent in Elaine’s frog(s), since the description of “exposed pink patches……. that were not red patches” could be a result of ranavirus infection ??
M