Ponds and cats

[Picidae]

From How can I teach my children about the life cycle of frogs?

Kayleigh's idea is excellent and looks good too! However, I'd think really seriously about encouraging frogs into the garden if there are cats in the area or if you own a cat. Frogs are very tempting targets. My mother's entire population of frogs from her garden pond were killed last year over a period of a few days by neighbour's cats. The cats didn't just kill them, they toyed with them and Mum found seven one morning on the lawn with their bellies ripped open and legs torn off. They were just left there to die, if not already dead. One of them had a belly full of spawn. It was very sad and very distressful for my Mum. I've several friends whose cats have brought frogs into the house then killed them.

[Hedge Witch]

Yes, a friend said they scream too. It's one of the few things that I dread my cat doing, and one of the reasons that the pond area of the garden is so heavily guarded with devices that she hates.

[Kayleigh]

Where in this thread did anyone mention cats..

Cats do not come into may garden as the dog chases them out..

I have a very healthy population of newts, toads, frogs, birds, mice and the odd rat ect and no cats I am pleased to say..

This is a wildlife site and if you are discouraged from attracting wildlife due to cats well there is something wrong....Get rid of the cats..
Go seek out a cat site.

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Where in this thread did anyone mention cats..

Cats do not come into may garden as the dog chases them out..

I have a very healthy population of newts, toads, frogs, birds, mice and the odd rat ect and no cats I am pleased to say..

This is a wildlife site and if you are discouraged from attracting wildlife due to cats well there is something wrong....Get rid of the cats..
Go seek out a cat site.

Uh?! Calm down Kayleigh my comments weren't directed at you but were general comments based on some very immediate experience of the risk of having cats and frogs in close proximity. This thread was about deliberately encouraging frogs to breed in the garden. My comments were perfectly valid in terms of wildlife responsibility and anyone thinking of going out of their way to attract any kind of wildlife into their garden should have a think about any potential predators already in the area. It's common sense. I'd also discourage people from putting bird seed on the ground if they have a roaming cat and to place feeders in a position where birds can't be ambushed! Anyone who can't see that as being a basic responsibility to wildlife, shouldn't be trying to attract it in the first place IMO.

I'm sure you wouldn't like to have witnessed frogs with their bellies ripped out having been tortured. Your 'advice' to 'go seek out a cat site' is totally uncalled for especially when my concern is for wild frogs and their main predator in urban/domestic environments.

Incidently the cats in question in my Mother's experience weren't her own but her neighbours. However, I'm sure she would have been delighted to 'get rid' of them if she could and still would!

Quite frankly, if attracting wildlife into our gardens without taking responsibility for it's welfare, especially when it comes to domestic cats, is the attitude on this site, I'd be happy to go 'elsewhere'.

Cheers.

[Kayleigh]

Sorry my comments weren't aimed at you but cats and wildlife do not mix as you said.
It just annoys me.......here's us on one hand trying to save the decline in wildlife when the amount of cats goes around killing the the very things your trying to save..
But this topic has been slogged to death and we will never see eye to eye..

I see my garden as a sanctuary where all things wild thrive and this is mainly as the garden is cat free..

[Picidae]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Sorry my comments weren't aimed at you but cats and wildlife do not mix as you said.
It just annoys me.......here's us on one hand trying to save the decline in wildlife when the amount of cats goes around killing the the very things your trying to save..
But this topic has been slogged to death and we will never see eye to eye..

I see my garden as a sanctuary where all things wild thrive and this is mainly as the garden is cat free..

As I said, I wasn't talking about your garden or your frogs - in fact I complimented you on it. I was stating, with all due precaution, that anyone thinking of deliberately encouraging frogs into their garden as a result of this thread, should consider the serious possibility of cat predation if they own cats or their neighbours cats come into their garden.

The comments did seem directed at me because it was me that introduced the topic of cat predation and frogs. Whatever, there's nothing to ''see eye to eye'' about ... the fact is, domestic cats are responsible for a huge amount of wildlife fatalities ... my point is DON'T make it easy by artificially introducing a prey species into an area that's already hunted by cats unless you take due precautions. Frogs, especially just after spawning, will linger in the garden, usually at night, in family groups. It makes them very vulnerable. Personally, I'd rather not see them introduced into a garden in the first place, if it means they will die a horrible prolonged and tortured death.

I stand by that and hope anyone thinking of setting up a breeding site for frogs in their back garden will take note of any present risk in their particular gardens. If there is a serious risk, eg. because they own a cat, then there are better ways to support wildlife, including supporting your local Wetland Centre by attending teaching sessions/dipping sessions for your kids etc or indeed, participating in frog surveys in areas where they already breed and helping to protect existing habitat.

As for 'discouraging' wildlife because of cats, people who own them, have already to some extent made their choices. I don't have a problem with that particularly, but those same people have a responsibility to ensure minimum risk to any wildlife that comes naturally or otherwise into the garden.

The original poster may not even have a cat .... my comments were both very general and relevant to the discussion.

[Hedge Witch]

Originally Posted by Kayleigh

Sorry my comments weren't aimed at you but cats and wildlife do not mix as you said.
It just annoys me.......here's us on one hand trying to save the decline in wildlife when the amount of cats goes around killing the the very things your trying to save..
But this topic has been slogged to death and we will never see eye to eye..

I see my garden as a sanctuary where all things wild thrive and this is mainly as the garden is cat free..

No Kayleigh, upon reflection, your comment was directly aimed at me.

Whilst I should have worded my comment differently, and I know I have been a culprit of thread hijacking (like many of us have) the following is pertinent to the thread:

I think frogs can be successfully introduced into the urban garden situation, and can live alongside pets including cats. They can because my garden is proof.

Another point I would like to make is that I don't think the collection of a small amount of frog spawn for the purposes of nature study is wrong, morally or ecologically. There should be guidelines, which encourage responsibility from an early age, including not taking the sample without the landowner's permission, only taking a small amount, and not releasing anything from your pond back into the wild.

I don't know what others think about this?

[james bennet]

Originally Posted by Picidae

Kayleigh's idea is excellent and looks good too! However, I'd think really seriously about encouraging frogs into the garden if there are cats in the area or if you own a cat. Frogs are very tempting targets. My mother's entire population of frogs from her garden pond were killed last year over a period of a few days by neighbour's cats. The cats didn't just kill them, they toyed with them and Mum found seven one morning on the lawn with their bellies ripped open and legs torn off. They were just left there to die, if not already dead. One of them had a belly full of spawn. It was very sad and very distressful for my Mum. I've several friends whose cats have brought frogs into the house then killed them.

Are you sure this would have been cats Picidae? They certainly do play with them, but the attacks you describe seem to me more reminiscent of a fox, seagull or crow maybe. In any case, there is so little good breeding habitat left for our amphibians that I would never let the potential of attack by a cat stop me from creating a pond, as long as there is lots of cover around for them to seek shelter in (and a pond is as good a cat-shelter as you can get!). Don't forget that frogs only spend a small part of their year in a pond anyway, so even if your garden is cat-free, they will probably still run the risk of cat attack wherever they go. In short, creating a pond or even a barrell for them will help them more than it harms them IMO.

[No.9 Spider]

"This is a wildlife site and if you are discouraged from attracting wildlife due to cats well there is something wrong....Get rid of the cats.."

????????????


I must be missing something here, they're all animals I thought and act how they act instinctively, that's nature I'm afraid.

[Dogghound]

No.9 Spider - I must be missing something here, they're all animals I thought and act how they act instinctively, that's nature I'm afraid.

Nature is generally used in the context of natural creatures. Cats are a product of human selective breeding programs etc. They are not natural in how they behave or their population dynamics.