What is eating my Toads.

[The Woodman]

Frogs eating toads?!?

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by derelict

Are there any french people living nearby? (!!)
<snip>
Meanwhile listen carefully to your neighbours' accents... you can't be too careful

You can say what you like about the French, but they know how to treat Royalty and the Aristocracy!

Jim

[The Woodman]

Mrs Sarkosy can come and have a cup of tea with me anytime, I'll even get the chocolate hobnobs out for her.

[Darley]

Please don't tell me we have Francophiles here

[The Woodman]

From the Virtual Fauna of Lakeland;
Occasionally large numbers of toads are found dead, with their hind legs missing, at spawning time. This is thought to be the result of predation by Otters. Toad skin is poisonous and unpleasant to eat so some Otters appear to have developed a technique of biting through the toad at hip-level and then pulling the fleshy, protein-rich, hind legs out of their skin and eating them. The Otter then discards the rest of the maimed toad and moves on to the next toad to perform the same operation. In the presence of large numbers of toads at a spawning site this is probably an efficient way for an Otter to gain the maximum amount of food with the least effort and in the shortest time.

Froglife has similar info as have many other sites.

Vive La France.

[Kayleigh]

Originally Posted by The Woodman

From the Virtual Fauna of Lakeland;
Occasionally large numbers of toads are found dead, with their hind legs missing, at spawning time. This is thought to be the result of predation by Otters. Toad skin is poisonous and unpleasant to eat so some Otters appear to have developed a technique of biting through the toad at hip-level and then pulling the fleshy, protein-rich, hind legs out of their skin and eating them. The Otter then discards the rest of the maimed toad and moves on to the next toad to perform the same operation. In the presence of large numbers of toads at a spawning site this is probably an efficient way for an Otter to gain the maximum amount of food with the least effort and in the shortest time.

Froglife has similar info as have many other sites.

Vive La France.

Wow...to think it could be Otters..That would be something..

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Darley

Please don't tell me we have Francophiles here

No but as I've mentioned, I admire their treatment of Nobility!

Jim

[derelict]

Originally Posted by derelict

Are there any french people living nearby? (!!)

I know foxes could do it but my gut says Mink/other mustelid. Something in the depths of my skull is saying that the back of the toad is the most poisonous bit and most inedible , that the hindlegs have greatest muscle mass... and at times of abundance as Coasty says opportunistic predators will kill far more than they can eat. A reluctance to put the body in the mouth would give a reason for just going for the hindlegs...

But no footprints by a pond...? Perhaps next year a bag of wet sand in the right place might give you the answer - or a live trap with a toad in a cage as bait.

Meanwhile listen carefully to your neighbours' accents... you can't be too careful

I was just wondering how big a trap it would have to be to trap a french person (or indeed whether a live trap would be the preferred option) but it does raise the question - where are the frogs? You do get them in your pond don't you?

[steve french]

some interesting replies, i dont think its an Otter because i have had no fish killed, the wet sand has proved difficult to get a good footprint due to the amount of toad movement, i think the only way i can get to the bottom of this is to install infra red cameras, any one got any they could recommend?

[steve french]

Funny enough i have not seen one frog in or around the pond in the five years i have lived here, and not one other amphibian, but toads in their thousands.

[Lance Morgan]

Originally Posted by Jim Ford

You can say what you like about the French, but they know how to treat Royalty and the Aristocracy!

Jim

They executed them during le revolution

[derelict]

Originally Posted by steve french

some interesting replies, i dont think its an Otter because i have had no fish killed, the wet sand has proved difficult to get a good footprint due to the amount of toad movement, i think the only way i can get to the bottom of this is to install infra red cameras, any one got any they could recommend?

That's a bit OTT - if you've gone to all the effort of setting up a pond why not go out and watch it happening? Unless of course you're training for a second career as a security guard! I take it this isn't just one night a year... you could put up an observation hide... that said I've heard of birdwatchers out in estuaries with their scopes plugged into laptops watching birds on the screens... but there the birds are a long way off.

As to the "no frogs" scenario - toads aren't the most fastidious of feeders and I dare say large toad + small frog = 1 slighty larger toad, and the toad population does seem to be rather effective in your neck of the woods.

[coasty]

Originally Posted by steve french

Funny enough i have not seen one frog in or around the pond in the five years i have lived here, and not one other amphibian, but toads in their thousands.

Thats not unusual at all. Lakes that seem to support toads are usually fairly devoid of other amphibians of course there are exceptions though...

[Tracey.A]

Hi, what a puzzle!? I was just wondering if you have found any Otter spraint around the pond? Otters usually like to deposit it on rocks or tree stumps or anything that is elevated a little.

Tracey

[steve french]

I dont think this is the work of an Otter, the lake is approx half an acre in length, i have sat over night on a number of occasions, and although the killing does happen on parts of the bank obstructed from my view, i really think i would see an Otter moving about and there as never been any signs, spraint or otherwise. This lake as been here for over 100 years and is well established, thats why i think the placing of infra red cameras at strategic points may well end the mystery, one thing is for sure no one has been able to say for definate what the culpret maybe, it is not a bird, it happens at night, the bodies are left in piles, are the facts, the rest is still a mystery.

[The Woodman]

Bear in mind Steve, that the majority of mass killings occur at spawning time and lakes like yours attract both mammalian and avain predators who feast on the abundance of available prey species.

If you are watching now, you may not see the action and the prey species will have dispersed or are retreating to their winter sites.

Despite the size difference, both Otters and Mink do not make a lot of disturbance especially when they are on a mission. The fact that the prey items are found in cover might give you a clue.

If an Otter has to travel to your lake just for seasonal feeding, it may not leave spraints around the lake but it will do somewhere on its route. The route may not be up a watercourse but across open fields.

If the culprit is a Mink, then trap it. They are the easiest things to trap.
Save your native fauna!

[steve french]

Thanks Woodman, i only watch in the weeks in March that the Toads spawn, i am determined to find out what is eating these Toads, not too long to waite will keep you posted.

[derelict]

I remember in one of those books of newspaper howlers that there was one description of a frog swallowing competition in which a competitor was disqualified for ... um... chewing...

How cleanly were the legs removed from the bodies? Were there signs of chewing or were they uniformly severed? Your repeated use of the word "piles" is making me think there is some french person "making a Mink y" out of us all here... though saying that the ones under the chicken coop are a bit of a conundrum. Perhaps it's a dwarf. The piles do rather imply that the toads are dead when this happens otherwise their front legs would shift a bit. If so you may need to be careful about where you place your cameras or you may lose them too. The possibility of english toad legs being cheap substitutes for frogs' legs has been discussed in the national press before - Google will reveal all.

[Badgerman]

This is the work of an Otter. The Toads are easy prey, so it will concentrate its efforts on them. They dont only eat fish, they will take almost anything they come across, and will travel a fair distance each night to exploit good feeding areas.

Spriants are a territorial mark, so i would not expect to find one if its only visiting your pond for feeding.

The other thing about Otters is how unobtrusive they are...i know loads of places where they are, but dont ever see them!.

So thats what my money is going on

[Turndolph]

Hi there,

If you think it might be Mink there should be scats around on the ground. They stink if you find one.

I know i,ve found alot of frogs and toads that have been killed and dismembered but that was down to herons.

Turndolph

[steve french]

Its not the work of humans, thats for sure, its not just the legs that are eaten, although for the majority of victims that is the case. Badgerman you may be right, i would be very surprised if it is Otters, but one thing that is for sure the placing of cameras is the only way i will solve this, i have done the usual things, sat up and watched, bed of sand to get the footprints etc etc, written to wildlife mags and publications and no one can say with any degree of certainty what it could be. So come March i will find out, my money is on Rats by the way.

[Badgerman]

Originally Posted by steve french

Its not the work of humans, thats for sure, its not just the legs that are eaten, although for the majority of victims that is the case. Badgerman you may be right, i would be very surprised if it is Otters, but one thing that is for sure the placing of cameras is the only way i will solve this, i have done the usual things, sat up and watched, bed of sand to get the footprints etc etc, written to wildlife mags and publications and no one can say with any degree of certainty what it could be. So come March i will find out, my money is on Rats by the way.

Its a pity your so far away, otherwise i would of happily of come and had a look for you. Let us know if the cameras pick anything up.