Why have 4x4s?

[robingoodfellow]

Personally I think there are far easier and less harmful ways to pretend you're a member of the aristocracy - wear a waxed jacket, go to elecution lessons, get an MSc in literary criticism, pretend to be a wine expert....

4x4's are useful if you live on a farm maybe...

Not really my thing though.

[Strontium]

Originally Posted by Boddie

That makes two of us Tony

Pure jealousy as I see it.

I got a 5 series purely as a status symbol. I have pride in how successful I am. Furthermore I love the comfort level, the safety it offers, and I want both of these for my missus and my family when I take them out.

I love the speed it offers me. It is fast

Just a note on this particular viewpoint, as there is quite an embarrassing contradiction by the poster. Is not the need to prove your success just pure vanity, and points to your own insecurities? The reason you feel pride is that you think that others are looking to you and you are hopeful that they are jealous of you. The fact that you have a fast car is such a joke. Honestly.

To quote Jeff,

Still, how reassuring to know that so many of WAB's eco-warriors do or, to misquote Groucho Marx - 'what a pity that all the people who seem to know the answers to the world's problems are driving cabs or cutting hair' (or in this case making posts on WAB)

Perhaps thats the point Groucho Marx was making, if you have just a bit of time to think about things, you really see what problems there are that face everybody, instead of just worrying about your own selfish individual needs. Thing is I met alot of people who just arent prepared to stick their neck out and be realistic about gw. They have reputations, jobs to uphold, a status to inflate, families to look after. Caring about the environment is 2nd to that. Its someone else's problem.

[Coley]

Well said Stont, for that I'm going to put you on my buddy list

[The Woodman]

"Wine expert"? try "whine experts"

[Boddie]

Just a note on this particular viewpoint, as there is quite an embarrassing contradiction by the poster. Is not the need to prove your success just pure vanity, and points to your own insecurities? The reason you feel pride is that you think that others are looking to you and you are hopeful that they are jealous of you. The fact that you have a fast car is such a joke. Honestly.

Great to see a bit of humour wasn't wasted

Yes, the hundred or so WAB members that I have met will all attest as to just how insecure I am.

In all my time on here I have never unsubscribed from a thread but with such limited posters I think I'll knock this particular one on the head.

[JeffH]

Originally Posted by Strontium

To quote Jeff,

Still, how reassuring to know that so many of WAB's eco-warriors do or, to misquote Groucho Marx - 'what a pity that all the people who seem to know the answers to the world's problems are driving cabs or cutting hair' (or in this case making posts on WAB)

Perhaps thats the point Groucho Marx was making, if you have just a bit of time to think about things, you really see what problems there are that face everybody, instead of just worrying about your own selfish individual needs.

Sorry to disillusion you Strontium but I think you'll find that what good old Groucho was actually doing was directing a satirical remark against those elements of society - often of limited intellect and/or in relatively undemanding occupations - who are so arrogant and opinionated as to appear to believe that they really do know the solutions to all the major problems facing the world, whilst the world's sharpest minds continue to struggle for sensible/practical answers and acknowledge that many such problems are insurmountable - or to put it another way, lighten up eh

Jeff

[The Black Rabbit]

I am pretty sure the title of this thread has changed from its original form.
As it stands however, the thread, or title of this thread can be easily answered and probably put to bed?

Q: Why have 4x4s?
A: To do the many jobs that 4X4s were designed for.


Similarly...
Why have ironing boards? (To do the ironing on).
Why have milk cartons or bottles? (To hold milk).
Why have jam? (To spread on toast).

etc.. etc... etc...

Doug.

[Billy Wobble Dagger]

Originally Posted by The Black Rabbit

Similarly...
Why have ironing boards? (To do the ironing).

Doug.

Why not have an iron for ironing, or have I missed the point

[The Black Rabbit]

Originally Posted by Billy Wobble Dagger

Why not have an iron for ironing, or have I missed the point

Heh heh!
I've edited the post to satisfy the wobble-dagger!
TBR

[Billy Wobble Dagger]

Originally Posted by The Black Rabbit

Heh heh!
I've edited the post to satisfy the wobble-dagger!
TBR

Much better

[coasty]

What a great thread and such varied posts never read so much hippocracy and irrational stuff on WAB before,,,,

In case anybody cares I drive a 4x4 when I need one for work,,,,You should try driving a ordinary car across a building site in winter it plays hell with just about everything. And as for BMW drivers well mixed views as I was one for 3years also was a jaguar and mercedes driver in the last 10 years....Certainly when BMW driver was never let out of a road junction,,,Mercedes drivers fare little better but Jag drivers are let out of junctions all the time....My kids said its because other drivers think you are old and doddery,,,,I now drive a mondeo as the 60000 miles a years means nice cheap diesel for me now,,,,

Keep up the Hippocracy and coasty signing of the thread,,,,,,

[Strontium]

Originally Posted by Boddie

Great to see a bit of humour wasn't wasted

Yes, the hundred or so WAB members that I have met will all attest as to just how insecure I am.

In all my time on here I have never unsubscribed from a thread but with such limited posters I think I'll knock this particular one on the head.

I apoligise Boddie, I was not trying to attack you directly, because to be frank, I did read that you help surgeons to do their jobs, and the NHS, etc.. It would be foolish not to recognise that what you do is not appreciable. In fact, if this is what motivates you to feel you deserve something - even if it is in the form of envy from others - then so be it. I can eat humble pie and not choke, I guess it would be more meaningful to some others if what you chose to represent your self pride, or to be a status symbol of your self worth was not just a mass manufactured vehicle.

[Paul mabbott]

Let's get back to the basics - the argument is against big fuel users - which includes most 4x1s but also includes a lot of inefficient fuel users. Yes, these should all be steeply taxed - I'm not talking the odd £20 but a logarithmic increase in road tax or fuel tax with increasing power waste.

And I travel mostly by bus or train (when I can't walk ) and haven't been on an airplane for twenty years ... so I'm no hypocrite about travel ... I find it offensive that petrolheads can ignore the impact of their fuel usage impact and then attack anyone with other views ...

Originally Posted by Ambriel

I love it when people who profess to "give a damn about wildlife and the planet" try to play the climate change/pollution card when arguing over the use of large/4x4 vehicles. How many of them, I wonder, still happily jet-off abroad on holiday each year?

[Paul mabbott]

No better, for sure, ...........
How does a motorist (chauffeur?) improve a surgeon's proficiency/efficiency? I have a considerable experience of the NHS and know that privatisation inaugurated by the wicked witch of the west has upped costs enormously - I presume you're part of that exploitation ... local health authorities used to have simple and economical transport schedules but now seem to have ad hoc resort to taxis .... and, of course, incredible bills for non-medical costs ....
You might make a good profit, your surgeon might make a good profit, but the NHS and the people are paying lots of money for it which might better be spent on health care ...

Originally Posted by Boddie

I could not agree more Jeff. This topic comes up every couple of months and always bores me. I drive a 5 series beemer. At the end of this week I'll have had it have had it 4 weeks and will have put 6,000 miles on it. Does that make me any worse or any better than a 4X4 driver?

I need the car for my job. The NHS needs me so that surgeons perform better, and I look to save them money too, but my emissions are likely to be as high as 4X4 drivers.

Does this make me a bad person?

[Deerhunter]

Slightly off topic, but related....

can anyone give me a link to the how many planets/global foot print/test thingy ?

Thanks

[Deer Stalker]

Earth Day Footprint Quiz

[Deerhunter]

Originally Posted by Deer Stalker

Earth Day Footprint Quiz

Cheers

I'll try it.

[Ambriel]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

Let's get back to the basics - the argument is against big fuel users - which includes most 4x1s but also includes a lot of inefficient fuel users. Yes, these should all be steeply taxed - I'm not talking the odd £20 but a logarithmic increase in road tax or fuel tax with increasing power waste.

It's all very well saying that inefficient road users should be taxed steeply, but how do you guage that? If it's simply based upon the amount of fuel they use then we're already being steeply taxed by way of duty and vat on fuel.

In urban areas the use of dedicated lanes for use by vehicles carrying more than 1 passenger have proven useful. How many vehicles do you see with just one person in them? How would you go about targetting them on a national scale?

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

And I travel mostly by bus or train (when I can't walk ) and haven't been on an airplane for twenty years ... so I'm no hypocrite about travel ... I find it offensive that petrolheads can ignore the impact of their fuel usage impact and then attack anyone with other views ...

Walking, buses and trains are all very well, and I applaud you for using them, but they're not an option for many of us who live outside of the towns and cities.

Would you tax us off the roads and leave us with no way to get to our places of work, take our children to school, or fetch the weekly shopping?

I have to drive for two hours to get to a railway station, and then pay more for a ticket than it would cost in petrol to get to my destination.

There is *no* bus service for most of the journey to my wife's place of work or my children's school. (Luckily I am able to work from home.)

Taxation will never be the 'Golden Bullet' that solves any problem. It can only ever be a short term stick to beat the consumer with while a better solution is thought up. Sadly the latter rarely seems to happen.

[Boddie]

Originally Posted by Strontium

I apoligise Boddie, I was not trying to attack you directly, because to be frank, I did read that you help surgeons to do their jobs, and the NHS, etc.. It would be foolish not to recognise that what you do is not appreciable. In fact, if this is what motivates you to feel you deserve something - even if it is in the form of envy from others - then so be it. I can eat humble pie and not choke, I guess it would be more meaningful to some others if what you chose to represent your self pride, or to be a status symbol of your self worth was not just a mass manufactured vehicle.

Thank you for your apology but I think you misunderstand me. I don't only choose a mass manufactured vehicle to reperesent my status, but also to protect myself, and my loved ones, should another road user cause me a problem. Having a father who is a senior advanced driving observer I consider myself a very safe driver and I took his advice, and that of his peers, before selecting a vehicle synonomous with safety. I guess the next best vehicle for safety would be a 4X4?

Conversely my expensive suits, Rolex, £245 Trickers shoes, £500 Mont Blanc Pens, Louis Vuitton Luggage etc convey my status and offer me no protection whatsoever.

I do hope these don't cause you similar distress.

[Paul mabbott]

Fairly easy to measure the energy efficiency of a car and relate this to the number of people being transported. So, if you have an electronic counter in the car you can multiply the number of miles, divide by the number of passengers and multiply by the efficiency factor - get a monthly pollution bill .... not impossible.

Yes, agreed that in urban areas you can ameliorate the problem by congestion charges, bus lanes &c but why not elsewhere? Single user vehicles in cities commonly considered as a 'bad thing' but why are they acceptable travelling hundreds of miles on a motorway? They're causing just as much pollution ...

Yes, I recognise that there are parts of the country where there is no public transport and this is what needs addressing. We need a national policy with the corresponding investment - which is only likely to come from taxation. It would also require prohibitions so that the rich don't circumvent it and it will need a change of attitude from those selfish people who think they have a divine right to pollute or are in denial that there is a problem at all!

One day .....

Originally Posted by Ambriel

It's all very well saying that inefficient road users should be taxed steeply, but how do you guage that? If it's simply based upon the amount of fuel they use then we're already being steeply taxed by way of duty and vat on fuel.

In urban areas the use of dedicated lanes for use by vehicles carrying more than 1 passenger have proven useful. How many vehicles do you see with just one person in them? How would you go about targetting them on a national scale?



Walking, buses and trains are all very well, and I applaud you for using them, but they're not an option for many of us who live outside of the towns and cities.

Would you tax us off the roads and leave us with no way to get to our places of work, take our children to school, or fetch the weekly shopping?

I have to drive for two hours to get to a railway station, and then pay more for a ticket than it would cost in petrol to get to my destination.

There is *no* bus service for most of the journey to my wife's place of work or my children's school. (Luckily I am able to work from home.)

Taxation will never be the 'Golden Bullet' that solves any problem. It can only ever be a short term stick to beat the consumer with while a better solution is thought up. Sadly the latter rarely seems to happen.

[Coley]

Originally Posted by Paul mabbott

Fairly easy to measure the energy efficiency of a car and relate this to the number of people being transported. So, if you have an electronic counter in the car you can multiply the number of miles, divide by the number of passengers and multiply by the efficiency factor - get a monthly pollution bill .... not impossible.

Yes, agreed that in urban areas you can ameliorate the problem by congestion charges, bus lanes &c but why not elsewhere? Single user vehicles in cities commonly considered as a 'bad thing' but why are they acceptable travelling hundreds of miles on a motorway? They're causing just as much pollution ...

Yes, I recognise that there are parts of the country where there is no public transport and this is what needs addressing. We need a national policy with the corresponding investment - which is only likely to come from taxation. It would also require prohibitions so that the rich don't circumvent it and it will need a change of attitude from those selfish people who think they have a divine right to pollute or are in denial that there is a problem at all!

One day .....

Paul, this is just one of those things. We could argue till were blue in the face, but there is always going to be someone who thinks their life is worth protecting more than others and they have a right to own all the material things that's so important to them, just because they worked for it.
All I can say is, at least there are enough people who care in this world, to make a great opposing side. lol Who's with me!

[Paul mabbott]

Yes, I agree, this thread has come to a natural death - in fact, since the topic has been aired before more than once it is, as you say, one of those arguments where those concerned about the environment and the future of the Earth take one attitude, those into big motors take another. The petrolheads aren't going to restrict their habits and the car companies have no need to .....

However, I will stress that, because of this dichotomy, there simply has to be a prohibition of big, fast and polluting vehicles. Petrolheads aren't going to change their habit anymore than junkies and the car manufacturers certainly have no need to change what they sell and how they advertise it ... [this could get me onto another hobbyhorse - couldn't we ban car advertising? It doesn't tell you anything, it implies all sorts of unlikely things - rather like tobacco - advertising of which is banned in the civilised world - even at motor racing events]

Originally Posted by Coley

Paul, this is just one of those things. We could argue till were blue in the face, but there is always going to be someone who thinks their life is worth protecting more than others and they have a right to own all the material things that's so important to them, just because they worked for it.