How to get closer than 1:1 as microscope alternative?

[Dillybythesea]

Having recently tried to examine the shape of fungus spores on a piece of glass using my camera lens and zooming in, and found that I can't get anywhere enough detail with my Canon 100mm macro lens, I'm wondering what I might be able to afford that would get me closer to a microscope's magnification?

I'm not sure what magnification would be needed to see the shape of fungus spores, but I remember Jason saying awhile back that a 20X scope would see the hairs in a Syrphus torvus's eyes, and I guess that with the right kind of additions to the lens, plus zooming in post production, one could get that kind of detail?

In the recent thread about 'getting closer than 1:1', Geoff explained that 'An extension tube has virtually no magnification in itself but will get you closer to your subject'... whereas 'Converters increase the magnification so can work well on suitable lenses. But they require a little extra light and can reduce the image quality slightly, particularly when used on cheaper lenses. A 1.4x converter usually works best as there are likely to be greater problems with the x2 version; but a x2 can produce satisfactory work under ideal conditions.'

So I'm wondering if, indoors, under the anglepoise, using the tripod, the Canon 100mm would be a suitable lens for trying some microscopy, and should I go for a 1.4, or a x2, or a ?? And is this a worthwhile endeavour, or bound to end in tears?

[Lancashire Lad]

Sorry to disappoint, but if you spend any money on the venture, then yes, it will end in tears.

If you consider that fungal spores (very generally speaking) average between 0.005mm to 0.02mm in length, (5-20microns) then you will see that even with the best macro lens / extension tubes / extender, etc. etc., you won't get nearly enough magnification to examine their shapes.

Even a dissecting microscope, which might give about x45 magnification, would be no good for such an application.

Realistically, to do what you are wanting, you will need a compund microscope.

Regards,
Mike.

[Dillybythesea]

Well I do appreciate the clarity with which you make the point, Mike! And it's exactly what I needed to hear, before I disappeared down another blind alley!

[Lancashire Lad]

Don't be too disappointed. - If all you want to do is see their shapes, you could, for about £50.00 - and probably less than the cost of a set of extension tubes, buy one of those microscopes that Lidl occasionally sell.

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...sMNaVmjOpvlDlw

They come complete with a CCTV camera that attaches to a computer, and for the money, are pretty well specced.

There are several people in my local Fungi Group who use them to very good advantage.

I haven't seen them on sale for quite some time - but they usually advertise them at around this time of year for Christmas presents.

Keep a look out - I'd definitely say they are worth it.

And you never know, it might lead to a full blown microscope later on.

Regards,
Mike.

[Jim Ford]

Originally Posted by Dillybythesea

In the recent thread about 'getting closer than 1:1', Geoff explained that 'An extension tube has virtually no magnification in itself but will get you closer to your subject'... whereas 'Converters increase the magnification so can work well on suitable lenses. But they require a little extra light and can reduce the image quality slightly, particularly when used on cheaper lenses.

This isn't going to help you with your problem, but:

An extension tube has "no magnification in itself" - none whatsoever. It just enables you to focus closer to the subject. Look at your lens as you focus closer to an object. You'll notice that as you get closer, the lens elements move further away from the camera body. There's a mechanical limit on the amount of movement on a standard lens. Extension tubes just give you more 'movement'. They also reduce the light to the sensor. In manual film cameras, you had to calculate exposure compensation when using extension tubes, but the automatic exposure of a digital camera does it for you.

Some converters can produce satisfactory results, but the less glass and glass-air surfaces you put in the light path the better.

You mentioned an 'Anglepoise' lamp for close-up. Consider one of these, which is much brighter and gives a light colour nearer to daylight. I've got the 135 LED one and it's so bright it's difficult to look at.

7dayshop.com - Online Store

Jim

[Dillybythesea]

Well thanks Mike, and Jim! Perhaps I can go and buy something/ things to have some fun and interest over winter after all! I will definitely toy with the idea of a bargain microscope, although I'd rather have something that means I end up with a picture of whatever it is, to salt away with my notes, and be able to go back to when I can't remember anything next time. And on the photographic front, I can't tell, Jim, whether you're saying to get closer with an extension tube, plus powerful light, might be good -or a good converter, plus powerful light, might be good - but I definitely get the point about the powerful light.

[Jason Green]

Originally Posted by Lancashire Lad

Realistically, to do what you are wanting, you will need a compund microscope.

I can't add anything else to that, other than to point out the human eye can resolve far more detail than a camera can.

You can certainly get microscope-based photos; many manufacturers now produce either camera-mounts to fit a camera to, or in essence a webcam modified into an eye-piece tube that you connect to your PC.

[Lancashire Lad]

Originally Posted by Dillybythesea

....although I'd rather have something that means I end up with a picture of whatever it is, to salt away with my notes....

Hi,

Don't forget that the Lidl microscope comes complete with its own camera that can take either still photos or video.

The overall image size is quite small, so you can't blow them up to immense proportions. And obviously, the quality won't match that of a much more expensive model. - But, as record shots they are quite reasonable.

If you do a websearch for "Lidl Microscope Photos" you will find many that people have taken with the device.

There are also some U-tube type videos taken with it too.

Regards,
Mike.

[Lancashire Lad]

The specifications (unless they change when it next becomes available) are pretty well identical to this: -

Bresser Biolux NV Microscope Kit [Bresser-BioluxNV] - 98.80 : 365Astronomy: Discovery for every day!

It doesn't say on there, but the image size for photos taken via the supplied minicam are 640x480 pixels.

Plenty of reviews from people who have bought them.

eg:-
http://understandingcancer.co.uk/200...aberdeenshire/

http://www.pbase.com/jgroveuk/photomicrographs
(Note he refers to smaller image size (352x288), but the later models are 640x480)

Regards,
Mike.

[Dillybythesea]

It gets better and better! I'm going to be checking Lidl daily! It really sounds excellent doesn't it, and those pics are proof that it would be more than enough for my aspirations. Many thanks indeed for bothering to give the info, links and encouragement! Yours, travelling once more in hope, Rhona

PS Listening to Radio 4 this morning, I don't suppose Lidl do anything for fungal DNA sequencing?